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Paul Wheelhouse MSP (@PaulWheelhouse)
21/05/2013 14:04
Used a Nissan Leaf electric car this AM to visit a grey partridge project in Midlothian. Early days but impressed!
http://pic.twitter.com/aZ2vHrPsrK
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CityCyclingEdinburgh Forum » Debate!
It's all about the Environment (Minister)
(33 posts)-
Posted 12 years ago #
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Does the Minister for Environment and Climate Change think that electric cars are better for the environment?
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-22001356
Would have been nice if he had taken the bus or cycled (not very far to midlothian: cf DaveC at weekend). These are options that are more accessible to the general population at the moment and are more sustainable.
Posted 12 years ago # -
Once every road in Scotland has been duelled, the SNP will hand out free electric cars for all and that will save the environment.
Just don't ask where the electricity is coming fromLalala I'm not listening, lalala!Posted 12 years ago # -
Don't forget that once all the bypasses and dual carriageways have been completed, Scotland will be the Renewables Powerhouse of Europe (TM)*. Eck says so, it must be true.
We can use the old coal mines and dried up oil wells to store all the dead batteries, no problem.
Case solved! Next...
* - Or will it be Spain? Or maybe Germany? Never! Scotland shall prevail! Look at all the investment.....er...
Posted 12 years ago # -
New election slogan;
"It's Scotland's Shale"
Posted 12 years ago # -
Perhaps it will be Portugal, after all they've bought and installed some of the "Pelamis" snake wave generators (as engineered in Leith). And we've not.
Posted 12 years ago # -
@k
kopyright that kwik.
Posted 12 years ago # -
We can use all the old coal mines and dried up oil wells to store all the dead batteries, no problem.
You're not thinking environmentally enough. The old batteries will be ground up and used to pave the extra lanes on all the duel carriageways to make them all three lane motorways. Recycling you see. The SNPs green credentials will be unimpeachable.
Posted 12 years ago # -
"Perhaps it will be Portugal, after all they've bought and installed some of the "Pelamis" snake wave generators (as engineered in Leith). And we've not."
Pretty much all started in Edinburgh too -
http://www.mech.ed.ac.uk/research/wavepower
Since then (have no personal awareness of Clam and Wave) -
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Bryan Leyland | 6 Sep 2012 9:54 pm
You should interview Prof Norman Bellamy Coventry University, who built, tested and abandoned Salter's duck and then developed what became Pelamis. He then abandoned this in favour of Sea Clam that is now being developed.He is now working on Sea Wave a radically different concept that could make all others obsolete.
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Posted 12 years ago # -
The "other" wave generator is Limpet, in Islay, although that was an idea developed in Belfast. It uses the wave energy to compress air in a water channel and force it into a bi-directional air turbine, which then spins the other way as the wave retreats and the suction creates reverse flow. I've visited it before and it makes a very pleasant swooshing/wooshing sound as the air rushes in and out. I don't think it's ever been replicated on a larger scale, but it's worked reliably on the National Grid for 10/15 years or so.
Posted 12 years ago # -
There are many other ways to convert the wind besides huge pylons with egg-beaters attached that have major limitations in controlling the energy being provided.
Clearly those specifying can't be bothered to look at other ways to play with Bernoulli's equation. Switch low pressure high wind speed to high pressure low air speed for example.
Posted 12 years ago # -
Oh and all those claims that we 'need' nuclear because natural sources are so variable - consider pumped storage. With Great Glen (Foyers No 2) and Ben Cruachan matching Dinorwic as power station equivalents that can stay switched off until demand requires them and spun up to full power in 2 minutes. Add in Laggan, Sloy etc and make all pump up with any 'spare' natural sources energy.
As for first comment Oh dear Mr Wheelhouse we certainly have a long way to go with you.
Posted 12 years ago # -
Just for your interest I have this app on my phone, gives you up to date information on the carbon intensity of the electricity coming through your plug sockets.
https://itunes.apple.com/gb/app/gridcarbon/id346832866?mt=8
Oh and all those claims that we 'need' nuclear because natural sources are so variable - consider pumped storage.
I generally try and stay out of energy discussions, I just end up getting angry, but heck..
Most of our pumped storage is currently used to help meet peak demand around 5-6 o'clock allowing us to have less built capacity of fossil fuel plants. Until our own energy consumption patterns change such that our grid load factor is closer to 1 (less peaks and troughs on a graph of aggregate energy consumption over the UK) there is a very great need for either better storage (combined with renewables) or a source of steady flow, highly predictable energy source(nuclear, renewable or otherwise).
Our pumped storage capacity is not large enough to cover this storage requirement. If you are advocating building more pumped storage then this opens up a whole barrel of worms with regards to just how 'green' pumped hydro storage is (ie it isnt: think about the volumes of concrete required, the habitat displacement, the destruction of the local ecosystem, and finally the massive quantities of C02 released from all that rotting vegetation you have just covered with water).
Other forms of storage (flywheels, capacitor, thermal, fuel cells etc) are either in their infancy, too expensive or just not designed for long term storage.
The big problem facing a high penetration renewable grid is storage. End of. The technology is there to produce the energy but we cannot store it. Nor is our peripheral grid strong enough to take lots of distributed generation if you try to take that approach as a solution.
As for wind turbines, yes they could be considered ugly, yes they are inefficient but they are cheap, have minimal effect on the environment (I can argue this point all day if needs be) and are fairly predictable in their output. Best of all, after 20 or so years they are decommissioned and leave very little sign of their having ever been there. A small price to pay in moving towards a fossil fuel free future!
Posted 12 years ago # -
Once again, CCE proves it clearly knows more about the facts than the minister concerned!
Posted 12 years ago # -
@Two Tired
Interesting/useful.
"Until our own energy consumption patterns change"
Doesn't seem to be much official interest in that, or encouraging reduction of energy demand generally (not just electricity).
Posted 12 years ago # -
"Once again, CCE proves it clearly knows more about the facts than the minister concerned!"
'We' should go into consulting...
Posted 12 years ago # -
The industry knows about the issues with storage, grid capacity, etc. Has done for quite a while. So do many politicians (especially Greens) and civil servants.
For whatever reason, ministers focus public announcements on populist gadgets like electric cars and 'eco' buses. Cheap, easy, and quick way to get some positive publicity? Surely not. Seems to be a presumption that Joe Bloggs/Megane (wo)man*/EEN commenter/(wo)man on the No.1 hybrid bus knows little about energy conservation, storage, or rail electrification and cares even less... Also ministers know that wind farms are unpopular because they 'spoil the view'.
*- used to be 'Mondeo man' but who drives one of those these days?
Posted 12 years ago # -
"Seems to be a presumption ... knows little about energy conservation, storage, or rail electrification and cares even less..."
Yes, but that is no excuse for -
a) not getting on and dealing with issues
b) explaining better
c) showing proper leadership
OK, okay - this is 21C politics...
Posted 12 years ago # -
Doesn't seem to be much official interest in that, or encouraging reduction of energy demand generally (not just electricity).
There is a fair bit, and a lot of academic research, but I guess it is generally felt to be a lot less news worthy. Also its not really a great policy line to go down in terms of being re-elected - "hey, you know that energy problem we are having? Well its your fault."
The more constant we can make our energy demand the easier it is to plan for. We currently have to have far more capacity than we ever use because we have to be able to meet that 6pm peak in demand that happens across the whole of the UK.
And in terms of overall consumption there is that marvellous statistic that does the rounds showing that if every person in the world consumed the same amount of energy as the average American (not picking on Americans, well I kind of am, but we are up there too!) then we would need 4 Earths to provide the resources.
The trouble is there is too much red tape, too many different lobbyists to please, too many laws designed to protect, too much health and safety, too much damn bureaucracy to get anything done.
Posted 12 years ago # -
Two Tired : "wind turbines [...] have minimal effect on the environment (I can argue this point all day if needs be)"
What's the lowdown on putting turbines on peat moorland? There seems to be a case that this is a bad idea, in that it leads to very long carbon payback periods.
Posted 12 years ago # -
Yep it is a bad idea. The peat generally has to be drained, releasing the C02 and for poorly planned windfarms can result in a zero carbon saving over the lifetime of the farm. It is one of the big sticking points with what are generally considered the best sites available for wind farms.
However there are different degredation levels for peat fields. A lot of current peat fields have already been drained/partially drained to make way for agriculture or industry. In these cases the carbon offset is more favourable. And in some cases EIAs have required windfarms to dig up and move large areas of peat to a storage area where it can be kept wet so as to almost entirely remove the issue. Alternatively offsetting the carbon released by planting large sections of forest etc.
These are all things that are considered as part of the environmental impact process. And it is worth noting that as the years go by, and our grid energy mix becomes more and more renewable then windfarms will slowly phase out as their relative carbon saving contributions lessen as compared to grid electricity.
Posted 12 years ago # -
@Two Tired, Thanks - all interesting.
Posted 12 years ago # -
@TwoTired, interesting stuff thanks, I have often wondered how predictable wind power can be, and thought perhaps the entirely predictable tidal flow would be a more reliable source, would I be correct in assuming build cost has more to do with the emphasis on wind power than other factors?
Posted 12 years ago # -
On the peat moor question, I suppose that once the turbine is life expired, then you can install new turbines on existing hardstandings and don't need to dig, drain and concrete up new sections of moor? (Assuming if the wind conditions on the moor are appropriate for turbines now, then they will be in the future)
Posted 12 years ago # -
Regarding peaks in demand - I was at a renewable energy conference way back in the 90s where it was suggested we should all try and even out our demand by putting fridges on timers to not come on during the morning and evening peaks. I can't imagine it was ever taken up at the scale needed to make a difference.
I suppose an electric bike charged overnight and then used instead of a car would be one way of handling storage...
Posted 12 years ago # -
@sally I suppose an electric bike charged overnight and then used instead of a car would be one way of handling storage...
I've heard this described as one of the advantages of electric vehicles in general - a sort of distributed off-peak storage network.
Of course, there may be more reliable storage with greater efficiencies...
Robert
Posted 12 years ago # -
@Smudge Yep that is right, especially when comparing to tidal/wave generators. Economies of scale have brought down the costs of wind power to the point that investors have confidence in getting a return.
In terms of predictability tidal definitely wins hands down. But there are still so many unknowns in that sector that the few investors that are in it are in for the long game. Combined with the difficulties to be overcome with testing devices, installation & maintenance, accurately predicting turbulent forces, marine fouling, environmental effects etc. there is still a lot of work to be done. But marine renewables have the potential to be awesome one day soon :-)
Posted 12 years ago # -
Shock, Horror, Probe! The Daily Smut!
Keith Brown in Netherlands touring round transport infrastructure!
Maybe he'll learn its not all about how many tonnes of grit you can buy on the Spot Market! Plenty of 'dancing ladies' for him to admire as well!
My daily 'peak' on solar has been 26.07kWh so far this year and will take over 8 years to pay back, then after that 12 years of pure profit all free from the environment. But every renewable investment regardless costs a shedload of money to kickstart, doesn't matter how you do it, the bureaucracy, negativity and lack of support from local authorities and some of government is shameful!Posted 12 years ago # -
But every renewable investment regardless costs a shedload of money to kickstart
You could say the same for Keith Broon's motorways and bridges. Except they will never pay back. Ever.
Posted 12 years ago # -
Wouldn't it be lovely if there was a feed in tariff (similar to what there is currently for home renewable installations) that rewarded cyclists with cash per mile for their commute as a reflection of their CO2 savings :-)
Posted 12 years ago #
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