@Charterhall, all your other questions are sensible, but to answer the first two - oh yes they can. (I'll find the link at some point...)
CityCyclingEdinburgh Forum » Sport
Women's cycle races
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Posted 11 years ago #
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@fimm, was this what you were looking for?
Posted 11 years ago # -
Seriously ? In the middle of a race, surrounded by camera crews/race vehicles/spectators ?
Posted 11 years ago # -
"In the middle of a race, surrounded by camera crews/race vehicles/spectators ?"
Are the camera crews, race vehicles and spectators all ordered/cleared out of the way when male bicycle racing performers stop to wee?
Posted 11 years ago # -
No. I believe that in some races in the US they would have section of the course not open to spectators for this purpose but this would be on a circuit race so would only need one zone as opposed to one zone every hour or so.
The women behind this petition presumably must have thought this through, I'm just curious as to what they are proposing.Posted 11 years ago # -
As I commented some time ago on the TdF thread, I and my kids were treated to the spectacle of Cadel Evans taking a leak by the side of the road, until the OB director realised what was happening and cut away. Luckily his back was to the cameras, but my 4 year old daughter is still talking about that, over a week later!
You don't get these moments in the highlights, only live coverage has that entertainment value.
Posted 11 years ago # -
This is the link I was thinking of
http://marijndevries.nl/?p=4123I also read in another female pro cyclist's blog that I can't now locate that if they don't have time to stop they'll just go in their shorts. I think this applies to male cyclists too. Certainly both male and female long-distance triathletes will pee in their trisuits, but they have the advantage that a trisuit has a lot less padding than a pair of cycle shorts.
Posted 11 years ago # -
That film of Le Tour during the 1960s which was posted last year at one point appeared to show someone being pushed along by a teammate so he could (presumably) arrange things so that his shorts didn't get soggy whilst he didn't stop for a wee.
Posted 11 years ago # -
If you watch the live coverage of the TdF you will be treated to shots of riders slowing down at the side of the road and riding one handed, with the other hand, er, directing matters... On the odd occasion you get a front view where the cameraman is focusing on a rider and either he or the director don't realise why the cyclist is slowing down until it's too late.
There are also plenty of photos of the peloton stopping by the side of the road en masse.
Things can get worse - there's a famous story of Greg Lemond using a teammate's cap when suffering with a stomach bug. And apparently Jan Bakelants did the same on Saturday's stage. I'm not entirely clear on the mechanics of that particular manoeuvre.
I think we can conclude that cyclists are a pragmatic bunch and our obsession with toilet stops perhaps highlights an essentially prudish streak in Anglo-Saxon culture. ;o)
Posted 11 years ago # -
How did Tennis, or Athletics manage to solve this problem? Events integrated and sports women of both disciplines appear to be household names.
Couldn't a cycle race be like a marathon, they seem inherently similar? A marathon is not segregated in the sense that all competitors start at the same time, race then has a natural selection, athletes finish when they finish. Males and Females timed differently, what's the problem?
OK, you 'may' have to make races slightly shorter, but why are they so long anyway? Was the length of the race not one of the main drivers for doping anyway?
Posted 11 years ago # -
Women in a mixed field would get pushed to the back within metres of the race start, and there they would stay, at the mercy of every crash, every whiplash change of pace, every crosswind. Not much fun for them, nor for spectators, nor for organisers and police.
Posted 11 years ago # -
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Women in a mixed field would get pushed to the back within metres of the race start, and there they would stay, at the mercy of every crash, every whiplash change of pace, every crosswind. Not much fun for them, nor for spectators, nor for organisers and police.
"How do they manage to organise Marathons, or Triathlons which have the added inconvenience of having members of the public racing too?
Actually, now there's a good idea, never mind the etape de tour, the ASO could open one stage a year to Joe public, chance to race with the Pro's. Would be a marketing coup.
EDIT: In mountain stages I'd also wager a hypothetical bet that the ladies GC contenders would finish ahead of 'the bus'.
Posted 11 years ago # -
One word answer: drafting.
Draft legal triathlons are raced separately by men and women. Triathlons for amateurs are not draft legal, and everyone can race together. Similarly, middle and long distance triathlons are always non-drafting, and everyone starts (more-or-less) at the same time.
There's not really such a thing as drafting in running, of course (though the controversy over Paula Radcliffe's marathon world record shows that even that isn't quite as simple as it sounds).
Posted 11 years ago # -
Itv commentary team having to move off of the course because a race is about to go through. More than one race in Paris today? How did they manage to organise that I wonder, the Earth still seems to be revolving and everything!
Posted 11 years ago # -
I'm female and have done road races in the past, both mixed and female only. In my experience, the fields in the female only races have been smaller and therefore its easier to spot breaks. They've also raced hard right from the word go, perhaps because they are shorter. Same with mountain bike races. I've also lived in The Netherlands (bonus points to those who make the correlation with my username) and we don't really come across those type of comments there.
What I do notice here though is that there seem to be quite a few men who cycle but don't race or race much, but who seem to hold themselves out as authorities on...racing.
I also used to be a track athlete ie a 1500m runner to County level. When compared to the enlightened attitudes in running, some of the comments on here about "female cyclists" sound somewhat archaic. Its really quite amusing.
Be careful though. While British men were leading the world 20 years ago in the 1500m and 800m, right now they're also rans, not even making it into finals, and the men's championship races have often tended to be slowly run tactical affairs. Whereas British women are constantly producing World and Euro Champ medallists and the races are always run hard from the gun.
Times they are a changing...keep up or get dropped.
Posted 11 years ago # -
Oh, and in answer to the question about peeing mid-race. I think Paula Radcliffe answered rather clearly what women athletes are prepared to resort to when in competition mode.
Posted 11 years ago # -
From PS:
"Almost all sport is, to the uninitiated, pretty dull. The spectator needs to invest time to understand the nuances and develop the interest that allows them to appreciate say 5 hours of a cycling race where very little happens until the last 10kms."
Sums up the trouble I have trying to explain to people why cricket is so so good to watch, but you've got to invest that time to properly appreciate the ebb and flow.
I'll second the mentions of Nicole Cooke's Beijing win being one of the most exciting cycling moments for many a year, and the women on the track are just as exciting and intense as the blokes. Some sports suffer, which as much as anything will be a historic lack of the same numbers taking part, and not yet being truly professional and so not having as great skill levels. The top of women's football is somewhat below that of the top level of men's football. But then I don't watch Scottish football because the quality of play is so much lower than other leagues around the world.
Have to admit I've never come across the point before that women's sporting events can't be the same as men's because women have to pee differently....
(Tennis gets round the problem quite easily - since it was raised - by having rather natural breaks in play, and as has been mentioned Paula Radcliffe showed how athletics can deal with it - as has also been pointed out, we're a little Anglo-Saxon 'urgh but that's dirty' in our view of such things).
Posted 11 years ago # -
Minerva: "What I do notice here though is that there seem to be quite a few men who cycle but don't race or race much, but who seem to hold themselves out as authorities on...racing."
Can I do some special pleading? I don't race now (I'm over 50) but I have in the past competed in road races, APRs, criteriums and team and individual time-trials - the last two disciplines at national level.
I still don't know what I'm talking about though :)
Edit: Lack of interest and understanding of cycle racing is a major issue in this country (Le Tour excepted). I only once had anyone who knew me show up to watch. When I've entered sportives or Audax events I have to explain that I'm not taking part in a race.
Posted 11 years ago # -
I'm pretty sure you can be a sort-of authority on something without racing. I can speak at length about cricket or rugby without ever having played, but having been a spectator for a number of years.
I'd never raced a bike until a cyclocross race last year, and that plus one more cx race amount to my racing prowess to date, but as a long term enthusiast I'd hope I know a 'little' about the sport to be allowed to comment.
Most of the decent football commentators aren't ex-players. In fact the worst pundits are often those big-name ex-pros.
(A friend of mine once argued that to be Defence Minister you should have to have served in the army. For some reason similar arguments didn't extend to the other ministries, so the Health Minister needn't have worked in the NHS, and the Agriculture Minister needn't have once been a farmer).
Posted 11 years ago # -
Surely the spectator's/viewer's point of view is the best point of view from which to comment on whether a race is good to watch or not ?
Professional sport isn't about participation, it's about selling products to customers.
Posted 11 years ago # -
Charterhall: "Surely the spectator's/viewer's point of view is the best point of view from which to comment on whether a race is good to watch or not ?"
It depends what you mean by good. I mentioned "A Significant Other" as an example of how much goes on in the peloton that's not visible to spectators/viewers. "The Giro d’Italia – Coppi versus Bartali at the 1949 Tour of Italy" by Dino Buzzati describes the entire race from the perspective of someone who couldn't see any of the action at all. Those are two extremes but unless you want endless mood pieces Peña's is the better perspective.
Posted 11 years ago # -
Charterhall: "Surely the spectator's/viewer's point of view is the best point of view from which to comment on whether a race is good to watch or not? Professional sport isn't about participation, it's about selling products to customers."
In biological terms, most advertising works on social facilitation based around hero worship and imitation and identification. So quite likely charisma and good looks are just as important as an enticing battle or a lone breakaway, in terms of selling products.
I don't really think than in other countries there is such a passive importance attached to armchair viewing of cycling. Plenty of people race themselves, some still hold aspirations, others know racers directly.
Wilmington's Cow: "I'm pretty sure you can be a sort-of authority on something without racing. I can speak at length about cricket or rugby without ever having played, but having been a spectator for a number of years."
You can certainly be a self-appointed one. Whether or not you are an actual authority would depend on the validity of the viewpoint and whether it stands up to scrutiny.
Some of what I read on here appears to be subjective and not based on evidence. I would hazard a guess and say that some of the more archaic type comments have an agenda behind them based around maintaining the image of the self, for emotional security. What I can definitely say is that anyone who has been given performance specific sports psychology coaching, as many in national teams have been, would ignore such negative views as there is nothing to be gained from giving them credence. What is important is the athlete's own performance.
Women in a mixed field would get pushed to the back within metres of the race start, and there they would stay, at the mercy of every crash, every whiplash change of pace, every crosswind. Not much fun for them, nor for spectators, nor for organisers and police.
Unusual, because there are plenty of mixed races which take place even in Scotland, including close to Edinburgh, and that doesn't happen. I take it you are aware that its normal to run races with 3rd cats, vets and women together? And that some women race in open races? Neither do these terrible happenings appear to specifically affect women on the Saturday morning chain gang. Certainly cyclists who get dropped, of either sex, as happens in the TDF already, may indeed be subjected to these unmerciful potential hazards of road racing. Whats new?
I found the comments about women being limited by the need to pee equally surprising. Clearly there are many women athletes who complete Ironman triathlons, where the bike section is 112 miles long. I have never heard of it being an issue. Or at least, not any more of an issue than for men.
As for women doing the same TDF as men - of course they should, logistics being possible. We had exactly the same argument in marathon running, yet 20 years later Paula Radcliffe ended up heading the UK mens and womens rankings one year.
Posted 11 years ago # -
I'm female, and have completed marathons and an Ironman triathlon (during which I got off my bike to pee, if you really want to know...) I've never raced in a purely cycling race as I don't have the group cycling skills. I'm aware that mixed fields exist in cycling races at amateur levels, but I remain to be convinced that elite female cyclists and elite male cyclists in the same field would work - I would have thought that the men would simply leave the women behind.
Posted 11 years ago # -
"You can certainly be a self-appointed one. Whether or not you are an actual authority would depend on the validity of the viewpoint and whether it stands up to scrutiny"
Well exactly, so assuming it's wrong, without knowing the validity viewpoint, would be as presumptious and incorrect as assuming it's right...
"I take it you are aware that its normal to run races with 3rd cats, vets and women together?"
First CX race I rode in they had the women in with the vets and juniors, but the British and European female CX champ (Helen Wyman) was there and specifically invited to ride in the Open race and promptly came 6th or something, destroying the majority of the field (I was lapped something like 5 times).
Posted 11 years ago # -
SuperSuzyJ was in the Open at Bo'ness, wasn't she?
Posted 11 years ago # -
Besides the differences between cross and road, Helen Wyman is a World class cross rider. How many in the mens field were that standard ?
Posted 11 years ago # -
Ah yes, I believe so (I wasn't racing there, so can only postulate that I would have been overtaken at least the same number of times (though the Bo'ness course is one that I think would suit my riding 'style' better).
If Strava is anything to go by, female cyclists are a damned sight closer to their male counterparts than is generally believed.
Posted 11 years ago # -
Posted 11 years ago #
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Strava. Oh dear. Says it all.
But then I'm not female and nor I have I ever lived in the Netherlands so what do I know.
Posted 11 years ago # -
? ? ?
Confused as to the problem with the Strava reference? I mean, I know it's not elite athletes, but you've got segments that people are trying to go their fastest on, and you can break it down into best male and female times. Is it not at least a reasonable reference point? Honestly open to convincing otherwise, but the post isn't illuminating as to the issue; merely dismissive....
Posted 11 years ago #
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