CityCyclingEdinburgh Forum » Infrastructure

EastCoast new rolling stock

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  1. SRD
    Moderator

  2. Darkerside
    Member

    Can't get to flickr from work - vertical hangers?

    Posted 10 years ago #
  3. crowriver
    Member

    'State of the art' = only room for a couple of standard bikes hung by the wheels from the ceiling, ie. worse than Cross-Country trains. :-(

    Posted 10 years ago #
  4. SRD
    Moderator

    yes. but ceiling looks lower/'normal' bikes just fit. My tandem fits current East Coast hangers. doesn't look like it would fit those.

    Posted 10 years ago #
  5. cc
    Member

    I'm puzzled - the interior looks a lot less comfy and inviting than that in the current East Coast trains. You'd think they could get that bit right at least?

    Posted 10 years ago #
  6. crowriver
    Member

    Not much luggage space in evidence either. Think current Virgin trains, packed to the gunnels in airline style seats with luggage piled in the bike cubbyhole, blocking aisles, etc. 'State of the art'!

    Posted 10 years ago #
  7. Arellcat
    Moderator

    Having discussed this very issue with Alistair Dormer at an IMechE talk a while ago, I'm really very annoyed.

    They'll probably reduce the seat spacing too. My kneecaps already get crushed on the seat in front unless I sit diagonally or can get a table seat.

    Posted 10 years ago #
  8. Snowy
    Member

    Hard to tell for sure from that pic, but those hangers don't look tremendously compatible with aero wheels, either.

    The designer has a supermarket mountain-bike-shaped-object, so that's what everyone else in the world has too, right?

    Posted 10 years ago #
  9. amir
    Member

    "They'll probably reduce the seat spacing too. My kneecaps already get crushed on the seat in front unless I sit diagonally or can get a table seat."

    There should be some kind of law protecting us on that - after all, the population is growing in height (and width).

    Posted 10 years ago #
  10. crowriver
    Member

    There should be some kind of law protecting us on that - after all, the population is growing in height (and width).

    Yeah, but under capitalism there's always the option to pay for an upgrade to first class if you don't like the leg room. Do they have extra room for a bike though?

    Posted 10 years ago #
  11. Cyclingmollie
    Member

    I'm pretty sure the East Coast mainline is under public ownership.

    Posted 10 years ago #
  12. kaputnik
    Moderator

    @Cyclingmollie but not for long, despite it being the most profitable and highest-performing and best though-of Rail company in the country, it is to be speedily re-privatised.

    I think rolling stock design in this country peaked at Mark IV and is sliding ever downwards now.

    Posted 10 years ago #
  13. Morningsider
    Member

    The IEP ranks as one of the dumbest rolling stock decisions ever. Much cheaper to purchase off the shelf locomotives (e.g. TRAXX UK) and a new run of upgraded MK4 coaches. It would save literally hundreds of millions of pounds.

    Posted 10 years ago #
  14. Cyclingmollie
    Member

    @amir, you need all the knee room you can get.

    Petition asking Secretary of State for Transport to keep the East Coast railway line in public hands.

    Posted 10 years ago #
  15. chdot
    Admin

    "
    with an extra 2in (50mm) of legroom in airline style seats

    "

    http://www.scotsman.com/news/transport/four-hour-edinburgh-london-train-journeys-in-2019-1-3006246

    Posted 10 years ago #
  16. chdot
    Admin

    "
    Heriot-Watt University and Atkins have signed an historic Memorandum of Understanding to create a Centre of Excellence for High Speed Rail, aiming to push the boundaries of railway track research beyond high speed into the realm of ultra high speed.

    "

    http://www.hw.ac.uk/news-events/news/high-speed-rail-fast-track-at-heriot-watt-12906.htm

    Perhaps someone can sign a historic Memorandum of Understanding to make decent cycle infrastructure - current speeds would be fine, cheaper too.

    Posted 10 years ago #
  17. Arellcat
    Moderator

    to create a Centre of Excellence for High Speed Rail

    We used to have one of those. It was known as BREL.

    Posted 10 years ago #
  18. chdot
    Admin

    "
    Alastair Dalton (@AlastairDalton)
    18/07/2013 15:54
    UK Govt: "aspiration" to raise east coast main line limit from 125mph sometime after 2019 so new 140mph Hitachi trains can reach top speed

    "

    Posted 10 years ago #
  19. kaputnik
    Moderator

    Class 91 Locomotive can do 140mph with ease. More if it had ample space and rails to do so.

    I think there's a rail-industry obsession with multiple units as they're seen to be faster accellerating on stop/start services (which ECML is not). Until the most recent models, none of the High-speed French TGVs have used multiple units, the power bogies have been consigned to certain parts of the consist (not quite traditional loco and carriages as they use shared bogies).

    Anyway, the result is more cramped, noisy and vibration-filled passenger compartments.

    Posted 10 years ago #
  20. Morningsider
    Member

    140mph is viable on sections of the East Coast Main Line (ECML) once Network Rail roll-out the European Rail Traffic Management System (incorporating at least level 2 European Train Control System). This might be installed along the ECML by 2021-2024, although the testing and initial roll-out of the system has been dogged by delays - so wouldn't hold your breath.

    Worth pointing out that the current ECML 225 rolling stock can do 140mph (225 meaning 225kmph, or 140mph).

    Posted 10 years ago #
  21. neddie
    Member

    with 18% extra capacity...

    That'll be where your luggage & bike space went then. Probably got rid of half the toilets too, I mean who needs them on a long journey (to h*ll)

    Posted 10 years ago #
  22. LaidBack
    Member

    Not sure what will happen to rolling stock on the East Coast north of Edinburgh.
    Is there any good news on better trains being used there? (Think I can guess the answer).
    Imagine if trains to Inverness and Aberdeen were actually nice to use!

    Posted 10 years ago #
  23. Tulyar
    Member

    The cascade of Mk 3 carriages - with the excellent conversion by Wabtec for Chiltern to automatic doors - provides a pool of rolling stock for open access operators to offer with a 40 year predicted bodyshell life and for both HST and IC225 (Mk4 carriages) lower lease costs than the IEP or even the 390 Pendo trains (which incidentally are also cheaper to lease and operate than IEP).

    HST and IC225 carriages with new locos from Europe (TRAXX) could provide Hull Trains and Grand Central with some improved stock and enhanced capacity, and might even tempt an open access operator to seek paths on the East Coast, and even the West Coast. Then we mighty see true competition and I wonder where the passengers seeking comfort, a reasonable if not maximum average speed and free wifi might go?

    Alistair Dormer has noted that his designers should engage with cyclists in getting the design right, and I have (in need of editing) videos of bikes bashing around on the hooks on Virgin and Cross Country Voyager trains. After all the serious work starts once the ink dries.

    Very prescient in current warm weather is the detail of several carriages on trains I've recently used, struggling to provide cooled air in the air conditioning circuit, due I suspect to the condenser cooling air temperature being too high to deliver a temperature gradient sufficient to transfer heat out from the coolant circuit and thus putting warm fluid (or worse - gas) through to the evaporator or locking out with the sensors.

    10-20% of the train had failed A/c on both ECML and WCML trips last week.

    Posted 10 years ago #
  24. kaputnik
    Moderator

    Interesting point Tulyar. Virgin and East Coast have effective monopolies on their respective routes, so there isn't any real imperative for them to be offering a more comfortable carriage than their competitor. If you had the option of the IEP i.e. high-speed Megabus or an open access competitor with proper carriages and comfortable seats, good leg room and pleasantly controlled environment then I know which one I would choose and pay a bit more for.

    Posted 10 years ago #
  25. PS
    Member

    The problem faced by open access operators is that they aren't allowed to launch routes that in direct competition to franchised operators...

    Posted 10 years ago #
  26. LaidBack
    Member

    The cascade of Mk 3 carriages - with the excellent conversion by Wabtec for Chiltern to automatic doors

    Are they heading this way then? The current HST trains on route to Inverness still have slam doors. Combine this with old style signalling, and single track lines we're getting close to railway museum territory up here. Dualling the A9 will take years so makes sense to make most of rail (not that 'sense' has anything to do with transport on either side of the border!)

    Posted 10 years ago #
  27. crowriver
    Member

    Aberdeen/Inverness services the minimum specified in the franchise conditions? From memory, three a day to Awbaredeen, two to Inversneggy? Presumably not (as) much money to be made from east coast routes north of the central belt. So new rolling stock is allocated to the (electrified) routes south of Edinburgh/Glasgow, where most people live and most money to be made?

    North of Inverness the rails are not welded together, so there's the old style 'clackety-clack' when the Sprinter trundles along...

    Posted 10 years ago #
  28. kaputnik
    Moderator

    @crowriver - Sprinter is a wonderful misnomer for trains on the north and west lines!

    They should be re-branded as Stravaigers

    Posted 10 years ago #
  29. Tulyar
    Member

    London to Stirling via Cumbernauld or as with WSMR London to Stirling via Edinburgh but not stopping at Edinburgh Waverley might be the sort of options. If the Settle & Carlisle is passed for the higher speeds that the track will allow then an option is to go London-Leeds-Carlisle-Edinburgh*, with options to depart from Euston, St Pancras, or King's Cross (Marylebone would be too crowded I think, unless thay take back the land and complete the double tunnel route of the original plans) NB the line from Marylebone crosses the line from Euston and back in N London, and all except Kings Cross run parallel (with Paddington also) in a 3-4 mile strip. Trains could also run to Kensington Olympia (where all the Scottish Motorail services departed from)

    *In 1978 a derailed train at East Linton meant that the Edinburgh-Leeds (North Briton) 17.50 was sent via Carlisle and because a Carlisle-Newcastle service was running to connect across, we were sent directly to Leeds down the Long Drag (the Midland Railway main line from St Pancras to Carlisle and Scotland via Dumfries (G&SW)) we arrived in Leeds early despite having to hang around for 20 minutes near Horsforth because we were early. Remember that the ECML goes North-East out of Edinburgh on its way to London, but the Caley route goes straight down to Carstairs.

    Posted 10 years ago #
  30. Tulyar
    Member

    PS my suggestion for simplifying the fares (and reducing them) in Scotland, would be that all services North of Edinburgh and Glasgow are operated by Scotrail but that some of the morning and evening services are delivered by running the trains that continue South to England as Scotrail services using the ECML and WCML trains (currently Cross Country, East Coast, TPE and Virgin). In the mornings especially the use of trains which would otherwise be waiting to start service in Edinburgh and Glasgow to provide extra capacity from Perth, Dundee etc was an idea started by Chris Green, and would also mean direct services to & from London from a far bigger range of Scottish towns & cities, as well as maximising the use of the trains. It isn't that unusual to sub-contract to another operator to provide trains, crews etc, and as the routes would then be solely Scotrail the mess and cost of dividing up the fare revenue pro rata to passenger numbers (and the involvement of Rail Settlement Plan Ltd (a company set up in 1996 to allocate fares revenue to TOC's operating over a route) would be eliminated for routes North of Edinburgh and Glasgow. To see the effect check out Cross Country Only fares for Glasgow to Edinburgh and Newcastle, or the Glasgow (& Edinburgh?) to Leeds fare via Appleby (50% cheaper than other routes).

    Scotrail would hire in directly the trains from Virgin, TPE, XC, & EC to run in from suitable places. Perhaps substituting an early use of a Scotrail train to allow that train to be used later in the morning to provide extra commuter capacity. Stirling or Perth to Manchester Airport (whilst the diesels still run) or Paisley or Ayr to Manchester Airport when the electric trains arrive.

    Posted 10 years ago #

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