By Leslie Hinds
CityCyclingEdinburgh Forum » General Edinburgh
"Edinburgh trams: Can they emulate Dublin success?"
(23 posts)-
Posted 11 years ago #
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While Luas was over budget, it cost £650 million to build 2 lines totalling 36.5km in length.
Edinburgh trams is costing £1 000 million to build half a line totalling 13km in length.
That's a decade of proper cycle infrastructure funding for Scotland.
Posted 11 years ago # -
Whilst I would love to see what benefits one billion pounds could bring to cycling in this country, I don't believe for a second that any significant proportion would have been spent on cycling infrastructure if it wasn't being spent on trams.
Posted 11 years ago # -
Having been on the Dublin trams quite recently, they're certainoly well used. Like sardines in there we were. Is it just me, or are the alleged overheard conversations about how wondrous the trams are just a little contrived?
I do actually think that if a proper network had been delivered after being properly thoguht out, and implemented correctly first time, within promised timescales, then trams could have been great for Edinburgh. They may still yet, but my cynicism levels are a little too high now.
Posted 11 years ago # -
@i
Not quite a fair comparison of costs. Luas was extended to 36.5km, the article doesn't say how many km were built initially for the e750m.
Also the e750m figure almost certainly does not include any financing costs, Edinburgh trams cost is £770m (the figure of £1b that EEN like to point out includes interest).
I bet SG does not include the financing costs in its estimates for dualling the A9, nor the additional FRB!
Posted 11 years ago # -
PS. Whilst I'm in favour of trams in general, I sincerely hope they don't extend Edinburgh's tram down the cycle path network (e.g. NEPN). That would be an absolute disaster for cycling, and I would oppose it.
Posted 11 years ago # -
As I was working in manchesternat time of first tram and visiting Dublin regularly t time of their tram, I can see the parallels and indeed have bored with this angle at length. But now I am also wondering about population size. Dublin city of maybe two million, Manchester also,major population. Edinburgh 0.5 million tops. So we are all going onto have to use it a lot. I am hoping for coupons. Which brings me by circuitous vicious of recirculation back to billy Elliot's dad suggesting Martin Scorsese liked Scottish actors "because of the infinite variety of wur coupons". Did you know, tramsminngladgow in 1890s used to issue coupons which the clippy would hole punch each day. The next most common thing to be punched in Glasgow was people's faces, hence the usage of coupon for visage/face/'fizog
Posted 11 years ago # -
Glasgow is only 0.6 million these days, but still has infrastructure for a city of 1.1 million (as it was in the late 1940s). Granted there is a larger conurbation around Glasgow to use all the electric trains, etc. However if we count southern Fife, much of Midlothian, West Lothian, East Lothian as the Edinburgh conurbation that's quite a large population. Edinburgh is also growing.
Finally, tourists: lots of folk visit Edinburgh as a destination. Second biggest draw in UK after London? I saw a slice of this first hand on flight from Frankfurt last month, half the plane was taken up by two large organised parties of Italian and Japanese tourists.
Posted 11 years ago # -
In the article:
Dublin is the capital city of the Republic of Ireland, with a population of around half a million
Posted 11 years ago # -
Dublin was 525,383 in 2011, ie. 30,000 more than Edinburgh (according to Wiki/Census figures).
Posted 11 years ago # -
Loght rail transport systems are all about hinterlands, of which Edinburgh has plenty. The tram would work well as a park and ride, with the addition of a line towards Dalkeith and Newcraighall, and proper traffic management (ie, something considerable less car friendly than current Leith Walk plans). It'll take decades for that to happen though.
Posted 11 years ago # -
the addition of a line towards Dalkeith and Newcraighall
Newcraighall station already exists, with park'n'ride I think. Don't forget Borders railway coming soon! Goes quite near to Dalkeith...
Personally I'm looking forward to getting on the tram to the airport for my hols/business trips; and boarding the Borders train with my bike to go on rides, maybe even some Gala based audaxes...
Posted 11 years ago # -
gembo: "The next most common thing to be punched in Glasgow was people's faces, hence the usage of coupon for visage/face/'fizog"
I learn something every day.
Posted 11 years ago # -
@edd1e_h: Good point, I dug a bit furthur. Finbarr Cox, a senior track engineer said "I started in 2002 and 30km of track was laid in 24 months. It takes a lot more time to divert the services than to do the track itself"
Didn't find out whether interest is included.
Luas: £650 million for 2 lines totalling 30 km
Edin trams: £750 million for 0.5 lines totalling 11kmPosted 11 years ago # -
Dublin population bigger than those figures. Even on wiki in the side bar given as 1.2 million urban and 1.8m metropolitan.
Separate google search suggests Dublin city AND county 1.2 million.
Regardless of fluctuations in numbers much more than 0.5 'million
Glasgow and Edinburgh now 0.5 million. I believe because Glasgow city boundaries drawn inside middle class areas eg Newton mearns now in the tiny council of east Renfrewshire. So infrastructure spread out in Glasgow with much wasteland and open space. Edinburgh I feel is more densely populated with most available space built on.
Dublin big spread out city but much migration so may be more like Glasgow but I thought the poplin of Republic of Ireland was about 3 million with approx 2 million in or around Dublin. Have not checked and would not have said Edinburgh and Glasgow now had same population
Posted 11 years ago # -
I think that, number-wise, Dublin is like Glasgow in that the official area of the city excludes places that are, effectively, parts of the city as well. Glasgow has places like Rutherglen, Bishopbriggs, Giffnock and Bearsden that are all outside the Glasgow Council Area. (You can cycle for two minutes from Glasgow Green and be 'outside' Glasgow.) Dublin has areas like Dun Laoghaire, Tallaght, Howth - again, not officially part of Dublin City but contiguous with the built-up area.
Edinburgh, on the other hand has well-defined urban borders and is seperated from all of its neighbours in the Lothians by open country. The only real exceptions to this are Musselburgh and Danderhall.
Posted 11 years ago # -
RoI population 4.5m, Norn Iron 1.8m, Scotland 5.3m, via Wikipedia.
Off the top of my head, I'd have gone for NI 1.5m, RoI 4.5m, Scotland 6m, which is a reasonable working approximation.
Robert
Posted 11 years ago # -
All depends how you define a city. Edinburgh has contained borders and open countryside because of planning regs relating to the 'green belt' (though now breached west of the city thanks to RBS).
Dublin seems more of a Glasgow, in that it can be extended to cover a wider area with a bigger population, depending on your mood/political-economic agenda. So, from Wiki: "The population of the administrative area controlled by the City Council was 525,383 in the 2011 census, while the population of the urban area was 1,110,627. The County Dublin population was 1,273,069 and that of the Greater Dublin Area 1,804,156. "
The same kind of arithmetic happens in Glasgow. Is Paisley part of Glasgow? Common sense would say no, but yet the 'Glasgow' International Airport is in Paisley! Similarly, are Dalgety Bay, Broxburn, Tranent, Dalkeith, even Penicuik or Dunfermline part of Edinburgh? Common sense says of course not, and yet they could be defined in a Dublinesque/Glasgowesque way as part of the 'Greater Urban Area' of Edinburgh could they not? Or at least the 'travel to work' area.
Posted 11 years ago # -
I'm not sure population is a particularly useful benchmark when it comes to a relatively limited (1 or 2 lines) transport system. It doesn't matter if Dublin has 2 million inhabitants if the bulk of them live/work/play in areas that aren't served by the tram.
Posted 11 years ago # -
Humm, a better question could be "Edinburgh cycling: Can it emulate Dublin success?" Not only does Dublin have a working tram, is also has working cycle infrastructure and a rapidly increasing cycle modal share. Last month during the Q&A after Mikael Colville-Andersen talk, he suggested to Leslie Hinds that she should talk to the Mayor of Dublin about how this had been achieved and how it had benefited the city. It would be interesting to know if she took this advice.
Posted 11 years ago # -
Maybe not the Mayor, but she did say: "While on holiday in Dublin last week, I took the opportunity to meet up with the operations manager of the city’s tram system."
Posted 11 years ago # -
My understanding of first line they put in was it ran parallels to Liffey, west east and stopped at o'connell st. You then have to get off and walk to the second line? No one pays.
All of the above just recollection, not googled it.
I would find it surprising if Dublin was a real cycling town, unless all happened in last ten years
Posted 11 years ago # -
If city of 2 million spread out evenly and the line went anywhere to anywhere then it would take a fixed number of passengers from A to B.
If a city of 0.5 million operated on same principles it would access 4 times less potential passengers.
However, Edinburgh is a densely populated city whereas Dublin is spread out. So actually a shorter line might still pick up a sizeable footfall but I don't really know what I am talking about
Posted 11 years ago #
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