CityCyclingEdinburgh Forum » Debate!

Is dualling the A9 really that bad?

(583 posts)
  • Started 10 years ago by Wilmington's Cow
  • Latest reply from chdot

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  1. LaidBack
    Member

    Yes I was amazed to hear him confirm to listeners that he was comfortable breaking the law because his extra 10% of speed over the limit was a lot less than people overtaking him at 90 mph while on their mobile phone!

    Mike Burns came over as a bit like Robbie the Pict. He seemed to believe that the Highlanders had been saddled with roads that wouldn't support long traditions of driving fast whilst those in the Central belt had plenty of nice roads to drive quickly on. (aka speeding)

    When on the M8 he sets his car to the cruise speed that he feels is appropriate. He is not wrong and it's just a shame there are not more drivers like him (joking). This right has been now denied to him and is costing the economy (apparently) as he is now five minutes late at House of Bruar regularly. Of course the savings created by reduced accident rates don't seem to factor

    Posted 8 years ago #

  2. gdm
    Member

    @slowcoach - regarding Mike Burns' 75-77mph setting, I'm assuming this is because speedometers in cars seem to be set about 5-7 MPH above the actual speed they are travelling.

    Whenever I've had our satnav on (and I've seen this in other cars), it's registered speed is always lower than what it says on the speedometer. It makes me think that either (a) I've got a busted speedometer, or (b) cars' speedometers are set to encourage drivers to go slower.

    If that is indeed the case and they end up getting done for speeding, it would suggest that they'd need to have been driving with their speedometers displaying a rate well in excess of the 77-79MPH range which is generally permitted before incurring penalty. In fact it would show on their speedometers as being up to 85MPH, so an absolute wilful intention to drive substantially in excess of the known speed limit.

    Have others have noticed this with car speedometers?

    Posted 8 years ago #

  3. neddie
    Member

    Pretty sure that car speedos are not allowed to underestimate speed. So they all overestimate, usually in the 2 to 5% range.

    I'd guess if Mike had set 77mph, he'd actually be doing 73mph (so still illegal).

    Posted 8 years ago #

  4. cb
    Member

    From a google: "A speedo must never show less than the actual speed, and must never show more than 110% of actual speed + 6.25mph"

    I did have a car where 77mph = 70mph more or less. Subsequent cars have not been quite so far out.

    Posted 8 years ago #

  5. acsimpson
    Member

    I was told by someone who should know that manufacturers aim for 5% over as that way they have a +-5% margin for error.

    Posted 8 years ago #

  6. PS
    Member

    regarding Mike Burns' 75-77mph setting, I'm assuming this is because speedometers in cars seem to be set about 5-7 MPH above the actual speed they are travelling.

    Much more likely that he is applying the understanding (how true it is I know not) that the police will only do you if you are exceeding the speed limit by more than 10%.

    Posted 8 years ago #

  7. cb
    Member

    http://www.scotsman.com/news/alastair-dalton-more-speed-limit-thought-required-1-3932310#axzz3q3Wn4gsf

    Posted 8 years ago #

  8. unhurt
    Member

    @steveo - is the Pitlochry pitstop what I think of as the "Escape Route browsing with free coffee" pause? Expensive free coffee, as I inevitably end up buying something!

    More Mike Burns in the P&J (https://www.pressandjournal.co.uk/fp/news/inverness/735811/heated-debate-as-a9-fatal-accidents-rise/)

    He said: “My understanding is that if they’re comparing like for like there is a drop in fatalities. However, by law, they have to use the baseline figures – which are the previous three years. That’s where they’d have to admit a rise in fatalities.

    ...so even he admits that a like for like comparison shows lower fatalities but he is arguing that they ought to use a different statistical method to show more fatalities instead even though he apparently accepts that in reality there have been improvements? That IS actually what he's saying, right? Which boils down to "my wish to speed must take priority over the safety of all users of the A9"*.

    *including himself. Don't these people ever worry about being taken out by other drivers? Of course they believe they're superbly skilled and able to drive safely at any speed, but do they also think everyone else speeding is a driving master/mistress?

    Posted 8 years ago #

  9. Stickman
    Member

    /goes to bookshelf

    /retrieves introductory statistics book

    /beats Mike Burns about the head with it

    Posted 8 years ago #

  10. Roibeard
    Member

    @PS - Much more likely that [Mike Burn] is applying the understanding (how true it is I know not) that the police will only do you if you are exceeding the speed limit by more than 10%.

    What do you know, he may be right...

    The chief police officers (of England, Wales and Northern Ireland) have got together and decided that they're not going to enforce the law until it's been broken enough, and that's official:

    CPS page on enforcement of the law

    The official speed enforcement limit for motorways and dual carriageways is 79 mph.

    Oddly enough, the guidance on low value shoplifting actually specifies the maximum speed value at which a penalty notice charge for disorder may be issued, not the minimum value. Anything above the maximum has to go to court and not be a summary offence. Indeed the charge of "low value shoplifting" was specifically brought in to ensure that such minor criminality was not overlooked by the police, for the sake of expedience...

    Penalty Notice for Disorder Guidance

    Peculiar that, don't you think?

    Robert

    Posted 8 years ago #

  11. crowriver
    Member

    Well there's an opportunity here for the use of speed cameras (whether average or otherwise) to take over the role of enforcement if all but the most serious speeding offences are to be fixed penalty only.

    Install cameras everywhere, sit back and wait for the accusations of "cash cow" to come rolling in...

    Posted 8 years ago #

  12. Roibeard
    Member

    @crowriver - the ACPO guidance applies to safety cameras, both fixed and mobile, as well as officer observed offenses, so I'm guessing that (unless Scotland differs, and Police Scotland do cite ACPO advice on certain matters), the average speed cameras kick in at 79 mph...

    Robert

    Posted 8 years ago #

  13. chdot
    Admin

    "

    On Start the Week Tom Sutcliffe discusses the importance of uncertainty and failure. The former head of the European Research Council Helga Nowotny argues research is fed by uncertainty and that any form of scientific inquiry may produce results that are ambiguous. She criticises policy makers for focusing on easy short-term solutions, but the former conservative MP and Minister for Universities and Science, David Willetts, understands the difficulty for governments in dealing with uncertainty.

    "

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b06mc8j9

    Interesting discussion about 'evidence' and 'believing' in spite of it! Also difference between aviation industry keen to get at 'causes' and medical profession being less keen. Plus Climate Change 'reduce or deal with'.

    Repeated at 21:30

    Posted 8 years ago #

  14. Min
    Member

    Given how many people on here (myself included) have found the A9 a much nicer place to drive since the average speed cameras were brought in, I can only conclude that the people who are complaining are the ones who were driving like complete morons before. I would like to hope that they will be ignored but sadly such aggressive people often do just bully their own wishes through.

    Posted 8 years ago #

  15. slowcoach
    Member

    @Roibeard - Police Scotland have confidential guidelines from the Lord Advocate instead of the ACPO guidance. Some of the reasons for this remaining confidential were given in a response to an FoI. Rather than saying anything up to 10% + 2mph (or some other figure) over the limit is ok, in Scotland there is some uncertainty. Police (including those using camera evidence) can take action below 10% + 2mph over the limit in some cases, and can decide not to take formal action above that in other cases. (And 79mph would only be for cars etc on dual carriageways - other vehicles and single carriageways would have lower thresholds)

    Posted 8 years ago #

  16. LaidBack
    Member

    ScotRail are having to run their 'trains' up the A9 at moment..... flooding due to cold/mild weather (!)

    I reckon this road comes to the rescue of public transport at least as often as other way round? Road is fairly reliable at moment.

    Twitter
    @ScotRail
    48m
    No trains on this route, it's replacement buses between Perth & Inverness.

    Posted 8 years ago #

  17. chdot
    Admin

    Might have something to do with relative priorities/investment.

    Posted 8 years ago #

  18. LaidBack
    Member

    More 'people' go by road at present I think? Pensioners get free bus travel.

    You are right of course about investment. Line is limited to trains every couple of hours with Mrs LB having to change at Stirling on last train back from Inverness to Edinburgh the other night.
    There seem to be an allergic reaction about too many through trains from Edinburgh. Of course this promotes active travel as people walk across Perth station. Something car users are denied...
    So rail is the healthy option!

    Posted 8 years ago #

  19. LaidBack
    Member

    Never mind about the FRB. You could be travelling by train from Inverness.

    10:45 Inverness to Edinburgh due 14:24

    This train has been delayed from Inverness by 50 minutes, has been further delayed at Blair Atholl and is now 60 minutes late.
    This train will be terminated at Perth.
    This train will no longer call at Markinch, Kirkcaldy, Haymarket and Edinburgh.
    This is due to congestion.
    Last Updated :03/12/2015 13:09

    So not just car drivers that have a tough time...

    Posted 8 years ago #

  20. panyagua
    Member

    Longest period without fatalities on A9 since 1978:

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-highlands-islands-35408447

    Posted 8 years ago #

  21. chdot
    Admin

    "

    No fatalities period on stretch of A9 longest in 37 years

    "

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-highlands-islands-35408447

    Posted 8 years ago #

  22. LaidBack
    Member

    So is it possible to be negative about this - any takers :-)

    As a rail user I've often had to use the A9 when the railway is broken. Last time was in horrendous rain at New Year and I thought of how calm the replacment bus seemed this time without people trying to exceed their common sense limit.

    67 victims from 2006 to 2010. This last period was 4 but not attributed to speed.

    The long term complete dualling project may never be completed of course. If it seems that road use is becoming safer then demand might reduce too. If rail services improve while traffic is getting held up in road work improvements then a balance of an improved road and rail might just gain support. Pressure from Green party is important here though.

    Posted 8 years ago #

  23. chdot
    Admin

    "

    @Birnamarts: #A9Dualling public exhibition 27-28th January at Birnam Arts @transcotland @miperthshire @DunkeldBirnamTA https://t.co/E0CreEH3ck

    "

    Posted 8 years ago #

  24. gembo
    Member

    not negative but they better keep the speed cameras up once it is dualled or the fatalities will soar and then there will be evidence that dualling has led to more deaths and they should convert the road to a cycle lane and a car lane

    Posted 8 years ago #

  25. chdot
    Admin

    http://www.highland-news.co.uk/News/Crashes-on-A9-on-Black-Isle-and-A96-near-Nairn-cause-traffic-disruption-08022016.htm

    (That bit already dualled.)

    Posted 8 years ago #

  26. Luath
    Member

    And again!

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-highlands-islands-35530743

    Apparently it's the sun's fault.

    Posted 8 years ago #

  27. amir
    Member

    It obviously needs to be converted to a motorway now [/sarcasm]

    If it was caused by the light, why not ban driving at such times?

    Posted 8 years ago #

  28. Chug
    Member

    That sun should be banned - causing cars to crash into each other. Disgraceful.

    Posted 8 years ago #

  29. chdot
    Admin

    Bring back the red flag (on sunny days).

    Posted 8 years ago #

  30. PS
    Member

    To be fair, "Traffic Scotland has suggested that sun glare may have been a contributing factor" rather than the cause, so incompetent driving hasn't been entirely discounted.

    Posted 8 years ago #

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