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Key complaint has halted A9 dualling in its tracks
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CityCyclingEdinburgh Forum » Debate!
Is dualling the A9 really that bad?
(583 posts)-
Posted 10 months ago #
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Cabinet Secretary Mairi McAllan says the dualling of the A9 will be the single largest and most complicated transport engineering project in Scotland's history
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https://twitter.com/invcourier/status/1681702944419504128
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The business case for dualling the A9 relies on assigning a monetary value to 'driver frustration' and assuming that this frustration vanishes when the road is dualled. No other Scot Gov business case has ever assigned a monetary value to anyone's frustration.
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https://twitter.com/overlandertheb1/status/1682018101544759296
Posted 9 months ago # -
The truly incredible thing about the monetary value assigned to removing driver frustration is that it is higher than that for the road safety benefits (£430m versus £343.8m) of A9 dualling.
Just think what that means. The value of removing the frustration experienced by some drivers of being stuck in slow moving traffic is estimated to be worth more than saving 360 lives and preventing thousands of injuries - assessed over the 60-year project appraisal period. That simply isn't credible.
The "driver frustration" figure is obviously BS cooked up by Transport Scotland so the project appraisal showed the cost of dualling to be less than its projected monetised benefits.
A9 dualling is no longer simply a transport project in the minds of politicians - it is a totem, a test of religious fervour. To not believe is to be cast out.
Also, anyone arguing it is "Scotland's Most Dangerous Road" then point them at this map (http://rsfmaps.agilysis.co.uk/) which shows the crash risk of all UK strategic roads, assessed as part of the European Roads Assessment Programme (actually developed by the UK Transport Research Laboratory). The A9 falls into the second safest of five categories. The A9 is simply Scotland's longest road, meaning it sees more collisions than many others.
I should say that I'm not against making safety improvements to the A9, just that dualling is not the way to go - even by the usual standards of assessing road projects.
Posted 9 months ago # -
The "driver frustration" figure is obviously BS cooked up by Transport Scotland so the project appraisal showed the cost of dualling to be less than its projected monetised benefits.
Strongly agree @Morningsider
Imagine if they could monetise 'passenger frustration' on the Highland Line. Infrequent trains and longer journey times than expected! Could be huge incentive to get it doubled and electrified. (!)
As the Tories are now going full on as 'ye olde motoring' party of England they will continue on 'shameful' ScotGov not doing enough to improve driving here.
Rural voters of course amplify this and divisions between city views and rural views have always been evident. Red top press mix national security in with the right of the individual to burn fossil fuel in anyway they see fit etc...
Posted 9 months ago # -
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NEW: @scotgov not able to deliver all planned infrastructure.
Cuts need to be to projects that meet all @scotgov priorities — and #A9dualling clearly fails climate test.
New price needed for A9. No chance it'll come in at £3bn.
@AuditScotland right to demand new price tag.
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https://twitter.com/transformscot/status/1707374254549778563
(https://www.audit-scotland.gov.uk/publications/investing-in-scotlands-infrastructure)
Posted 7 months ago # -
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Douglas Ross has suggested that the UK Government could intervene to finally get the A9 dualled as he pledged to pile more pressure on SNP minister to complete the contentious project.
The Scottish Government committed to dualling the entirely of the A9 in 2007, but has delayed the plans. No completion date has been provided by SNP minister.
Mr Ross, in his keynote address to a Scottish Conservative fringe event at the UK Tory conference in Manchester, stressed that dualling the A9 and other key roads will be a priority for his party.
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Herald
Posted 7 months ago # -
God help us! They’re hell-bent on destroying everything
Posted 7 months ago # -
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Elsewhere, he said the Tory party would pledge to fully dual the A9 to Inverness and the A96 “as soon as possible” – although he acknowledged transport was a devolved issue.
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Posted 7 months ago # -
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A former Scottish government minister has told MSPs that suggestions that it could take until 2050 to complete work to dual the A9 between Inverness and Perth were "totally unacceptable".
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https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-scotland-highlands-islands-67005255.amp
Posted 7 months ago # -
What's 'totally unacceptable' is the total inability to apply Scotland's surplus electricity to railways north of Dunblane. Dross and the dinosaur tendency can't understand that road demand will come down if fast alternatives are in place. Of course improving capacity on rail is not a UK thing so a modest amount of double track still to appear to Inverness.
Posted 7 months ago # -
I'm not sure how much pent up demand on the railway is taken to the road North of Edinburgh. How much of the traffic is exclusively going to towns with stations and how much is folk touring round or visiting almost anywhere else north of Pitlochry which is just too much of pita to get to by public transport?
If I'm going bike packing or walking I usually try and plan a circular route starting at a railway station or a linear route joining two stations but then I'll bottle it and decide I don't want to spend the weekend on the platform and take the car. If I've got the family it's just easier and cheaper to take the car than 5 tickets and try and find something to do in Aviemore for a week.
Posted 6 months ago # -
And so the car dominance perpertuates...
People won't take the train or bus and by extension won't then write to their MSPs/MP to demand a better service. A self-fulfilling vicious circle of dependency.
People then also come up with all sorts of justifications to use the car, instead of planning around public transport. Car use isn't cheaper for a family of 5 - that's deluding yourself by not including all the costs. Meanwhile huge taxes being spent on car infra - £160m Winchburgh junction, anyone?
You won't be able to "see it" until you sell your car. Why can't people even learn to love the lovely surroundings they're already in, instead of unsustainably trying to hedonistically "escape" to the countryside? (And destroying said countryside in the process)
Really, really frustrating to see my children's futures being burnt to a cinder. And it's all going to collapse in a very bad way shortly...
Posted 6 months ago # -
By the way, my wife was remarking how lovely it was to take the train through Fife the other day. Minimal impact on the countryside of 2 tracks, the tracks being mostly empty (because trains are an efficient use of space).
This was after she'd taken a similar minibus journey by road, and she hadn't been on any motorway-style road for awhile. It made her realise just how ugly, noisy, destructive and dangerous motorways and trunk roads are...
...it seems like we live a different world
Posted 6 months ago # -
Paul Donald's book "Traffication" is a good one, it describes the impact of roads on wildlife.
Spoiler: it isn't roadkill that's devastating wildlife - most animals won't even cross a road, many won't even live within 2km of a road due to the noise - fracturing habitats, severely reducing genetic diversity and causing decline in species as great as that caused by intensive farming.
And that's only wildlife, that's before we even get started on the deleterious effects on humans, or even Earth's life support systems...
Posted 6 months ago # -
The crazy thing is, people think it not them!
They think it's someone else doing all the driving, and all the flying!
Posted 6 months ago # -
I don't disagree but there is no delusion. I'm fully aware how much the car costs to run and I'm comfortable with the financial costs and try to minimise other costs. I don't use it often, its per mile use is pretty bad, but public transport in this country verges on unusable out side the cities and even in Edinburgh its not great unless you're only going to/from town.
As for how people spend their free time, its really none of your business.
Every choice has an impact on the planet, the biggest choice, the longest lasting impact is having kids. Frankly childfree people could fly round the world in a private jet for the carbon impact we've chosen. Adding a little more so the kids actually have some understanding of the world outside of their bubble might (might not) help, maybe they grow to care for the countryside and not just live in a city bubble.
Posted 6 months ago # -
its really none of your business
It becomes my business when it affects the very future of my/our children (not to mention subjecting them to road danger).
The right to travel, or go to the countryside, does not trump the right for our children to have a habitable planet to live on
And that "child-free" nonsense is a right-wing myth peddled by the fossil fuel industry to keep BAU.
Humans have a right to reproduce themselves (responsibly) and that right is not trumped by a tiny proportion of the global population wanting to fly everywhere. It's our literal duty to reproduce AND to protect the habitat for our children, for their children, and so on for generations.
Indeed, more civilised indigenous peoples consider the next 7 generations in their culture
Posted 6 months ago # -
I am going to bet you've got a personal higher impact than those indigenous people so until you are living in a yurt on the Stepps you are just as culpable for climate change as I am, the difference is in fractions. Your insufferable piety since you've made the radical choice to sell your car doesn't really change much.
Posted 6 months ago # -
45% of people in Edinburgh don't own a car, so not really that "radical"
Also, rule 1
Posted 6 months ago # -
That really was my point...
Posted 6 months ago # -
Yes, Rule 1 folks. You can agree to disagree.
And that "child-free" nonsense is a right-wing myth peddled by the fossil fuel industry to keep BAU.
The whole notion of a 'carbon footprint' was invented by the fossil fuel industry to place the burden of responsibility on the consumer and not the producer.
Back in 2015 I looked at the relative fixed and marginal costs of car vs bike+train for touring in Wales. Over a total trip length of 930 miles by car the cost was £171, and fuel back then was £1.09 a litre. The bike+train cost was £193 and I was due to ride about 300 miles. I did opt for bike+train in the end, but also went home after five days of being cold and wet, and spent an additional amount of money that fortunately I can't remember on a new train ticket.
I was hoping to go to a concert in the Midlands next week, since the Midlands is as far north as the band is visiting. The train would have been £95 return, while motorbiking would've been £70 in fuel alone. Given that a night's accommodation was an additional £55, and the cost of the concert itself a paltry £20, I figured I'd just not go.
Posted 6 months ago # -
It becomes my business when it affects the very future of my/our children
So exactly how much CO2 does driving contribute, all data from 2019.
According to the UK Govt* 15% of UK emissions are directly attributable to passenger cars. The average UK head produces 5.4t per year. Passenger cars are responsible for 15% of the total, so non drivers can knock 800kg from that, assuming they never step foot in a passenger car (unclear if that includes taxis).
4.6t per capita puts non drivers around Portugal. I don't know how low per capita emissions need to drop to prevent climate breakdown but I'm going to guess its a lot lower than 4.6t
There are many good reasons to reduce or eliminate passenger vehicle miles but lets not kid ourselves that a 15% reduction in co2 emissions, even globally, is going to save the world. Frankly focusing on emissions is giving people an easy out. Swap to an EV and most of the problematic areas of car ownership still exist but emissions drop to a small percentage of ICE, especially in Scotland where cars can be charged for a few g of co2 per mile, actual 0 in the north where wind power regularly accounts for 100% of electricity production and can not be easily distributed south where gas contributes a higher percentage of generation.
Posted 6 months ago # -
Back in 2015 I looked at the relative fixed and marginal costs of car vs bike+train for touring in Wales
Now multiply the train by 5(ish) and you can't take the bike.
The whole notion of a 'carbon footprint' was invented by the fossil fuel industry to place the burden of responsibility on the consumer and not the producer.
I've heard this before and to an extent I agree but where does one draw the line on personal responsibility? If Mauve from the Senior Leadership team won't stop flying to London for every half hour meeting whats the point in Geoff from the call centre taking two busses every day when its a 20 minutes cross city drive. The temptation to just throw our hands up and say nothing if the US and China won't do anything but that seems a bit defeatist.
Posted 6 months ago # -
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For the duration of the ‘Off-Peak fares all day long’ trial, which runs between 2 October 2023 and 31 March 2024, Kids for a Quid tickets are valid for travel all day, any day.
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Posted 6 months ago # -
I have found when travelling by rail in the UK that you can travel as a family, or travel with your bike - but never both. More than two bikes busts the cycle carrying capacity of many UK trains - add to that the fraught logistics of getting bikes onto a train and it isn't really practical for families.
It's usually cheaper to use a Family and Friends Railcard than the Kids for a Quid offer, as the discount on the adult fare can be pretty substantial. A prime example of complex rail ticket pricing also acting as a disincentive to family travel.
Posted 6 months ago # -
Classic denial: It's not me. It's someone or something or somewhere else. It isn't that bad. It's only a little bit. EVs will save us...
"bla bla bla" as Greta would say
Posted 6 months ago # -
No it is me. It's also you. You are giving it bla bla bla and hiding behind not driving.
Our lifestyles are unsustainable, mine just a tiny fraction more.
Posted 6 months ago # -
the fraught logistics of getting bikes onto a train
Yes, every time.
The Toronto-Niagara GO Train service was like nothing I'd ever experienced before, and nothing I've experienced since.
https://www.biketrain.ca/toronto-niagara
It's only about the same trip length as Edinburgh to Alnmouth, and rumbles along at about 70mph, but for crying out loud, it's $25 return. Each train has three carriages for bikes, and 18 bikes per carriage, and you get enough time - and assistance! - for loading at either end. I took my 9ft long recumbent bike onboard, no problem.
Posted 6 months ago # -
The kids for a quid ticket isn't stackable with the family railcard, however the discount can be applied to the adult ticket(s). The trouble is that the kids for a quid is an in person only fare. The only way to buy it is either from a ticket window or on the train (at least on scotrail).
I don't know if kids for a quid is bookable in advance or not though.
Posted 6 months ago # -
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However, the A9 , is particularly ‘unforgiving’ of driver error, especially because of the rapid and frequent alternation between single and dual carriageway, and indeed '2+1' sections too.
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Transport Scotland, described by an industry representative in his evidence to the Holyrood Petitions Committee on the 14th of June, as “the worst client in the UK” has given no clear explanation why these four sections have not gone to procurement.
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Posted 6 months ago #
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