So will this camera scheme be able to distinguish between cars and lorries? If so, how can it do that reliably? If not then why would the lorry drivers care? Confused.
CityCyclingEdinburgh Forum » Debate!
Is dualling the A9 really that bad?
(597 posts)-
Posted 11 years ago #
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They seem to misunderstand how average speed cameras work. It's like they think there will be one camera at the start of the A9 and one at the end and you need to average 40mph over the whole distance. I suspect there will a pair of cameras covering the 40mph zones and another set covering 50mph zones.
@cb
Yes, the cameras can tell the difference. Or to be more precise, the cameras record the number plates of each vehicle. Easy for a database to both calculate the average speed and, knowing the vehicle from the registration, to determine if the average speed is > speed limit for that type of vehicle.Posted 11 years ago # -
from http://www.highland-news.co.uk/2012: 'Mr McKenna has organised a "40mph week" when lorry drivers will insist on driving strictly at required speed limits. He says this causes hold-ups and lorry drivers often break the limit to keep traffic flowing.
... "I’ve had six points on my licence in the past four months because I’ve been driving above the speed limit because of the tailback behind me."
'The 40mph week will take place from December 3-7 (2012).'
Posted 11 years ago # -
His public spirited speeding is a credit to him. Selflessly taking on the burden of those points to keep the traffic moving. There's nearly 200 laybys on the A9. He could just pull over and let traffic pass.
Posted 11 years ago # -
A9 popped up in news again.
http://www.pressandjournal.co.uk/Article.aspx/3360536
The real answer though is to improve the main transport corridor of course.
When the roadworks for this go ahead they'll create massive traffic delays....Posted 11 years ago # -
Maybe if folk took the train instead there'd be no need for these funerals at all?
Posted 11 years ago # -
Piece from yesterday's Scotsman by David Spaven:
http://www.scotsman.com/news/rail-freight-must-be-remembered-in-a9-debate-1-3063268
Posted 11 years ago # -
Piece from BBC news.
"95% of HGVs are driven at speeds above the national speed limit on the A9"Posted 11 years ago # -
Radio Scotland's lunchtime news show had a lot of emails saying that average speed cameras were dangerous and demanding that dualling should be done even faster (!)
If I was an MSP in the area I think suggesting a faster two way train line might not gel with my more vocal constituents.... No-one gets the benefits of offering a choice of ways of getting from A to B.
I think it's the obvious thing to do - as suggested by some freight hauliers. Tourism potential is immense too.
Posted 11 years ago # -
From that BBC piece:
Spokesman Mike Burns said: "The main issue that seems to be arising is
driver frustration, caused by slow moving vehicle queues, poor road maintenance, poor road signage and a lack of police presencebad driving."Fixed that for you, Mike.
Posted 11 years ago # -
No-one gets the benefits of offering a choice of ways of getting from A to B.
Sadly, it's because the mouth-offs are all just thinking "WHAT ABOUT ME? AND MY CAR? EH?" and couldn't give a monkey's about anyone, nor anything else.
Goldfish bowl psychology.
Posted 11 years ago # -
http://www.buchanobserver.co.uk/news/scottish-headlines/brown-in-a9-plan-talks-with-church-1-3067733
Nice that Keith Brown finds time in his diary to meet with the Wee Frees. What's A9 dualling got to do with them anyway?
Posted 11 years ago # -
I am sick of this bilge that the A9 is Scotland's most dangerous road. Here is the proof that it is far from the most dangerous road:
http://www.eurorap.org/media/130404/rrm_britain_06-10_-_scotland_region.pdf
Why do journalists keep parroting this nonsense? Dualling tha A9 is a purely political decision - there are far more "dangerous roads" that could be upgraded.
cb - surprising, I'd assume they would wish to keep the devilish singing, dancing and carousing as far away as possible, unless...
Posted 11 years ago # -
Would it be inaccurate to draw the link between the black roads and their popularity with motorcyclists?
Posted 11 years ago # -
I don't see why the motorists should get £3billion of public money until they start obeying the law.
Posted 11 years ago # -
PS re "link between the black roads and their popularity with motorcyclists". I've checked crashmap for the accident details for the A708 between Selkirk and Moffat shown black. All 14 Fatal or Serious accidents counted for this map involved Motorcyclist casualties, half only involved one vehicle ie the motorcycle, and none involved pedal cyclist or pedestrian casualties.
On the A819 4 out of the 12 Fatal or Serious accidents invovlved motorcycle casualties, and it was 9 out of 12 on the A822.Posted 11 years ago # -
@CalumCookabl
Comedy Gold. Do you actually believe what you posted?Posted 11 years ago # -
Thanks slowcoach. The stats for the A708 do not surprise me - I was cycling along there a couple of years ago when a leather clad organ donor overtook me at at least 60mph whilst doing a wheelie... I didn't feel much cyclist-biker camaraderie after that.
I don't know the A819, but the A822 is a popular biker road.
Posted 11 years ago # -
@Morningsider
Thanks for the link. Interesting but Obviously very dependent on accurate Accident statistics and traffic flow information.
I agree that is a political decision to dual the A9, as a previous government made a similar decision to extend the M74 towards England.
How have you defined "Scotland's most dangerous road" ?
The link does not tell you where spending money will give the greatest reduction in accidents because traffic flow information is missing.
I am afraid that your link neither disproves the "media bilge" or proves that "there are far more "dangerous roads" that could be upgraded."
Posted 11 years ago # -
@Dangerous, I'm convinced. If you\re not, you could visit http://www.eurorap.org/ as suggested on the PDF to find out more?
Posted 11 years ago # -
@crowriver
There are lies, damned lies and statistics.
Linked map shows the risk to a driver if they are driving on each of the roads by colour coding.
It does NOT show where most accidents occur.
It does NOT show exactly where the accidents occur. Are they random or concentrated at some specific points.
It does NOT show where to spend money to reduce accidents.
In simple terms you would spend that money on busy roads with high accident frequency.
The black roads have higher accident frequency (hence black) but we do not know how busy they are as that information is not shown. Common sense suggests they are not very busy so the money should be spent elsewhere or targetted at specific accident "blackspots" on those roads
Posted 11 years ago # -
@Dangerous I don't actually believe there is such a homogenous group as "The Motorists".
If you read the comments on a news story about some token cycle path that's being built you'll see much whining along the lines of "why are those tax-dodging Cyclists getting £500k for a cycle path, they break all the rules of the road and they don't even use the paths that are provided, waste of money". There is no such response to spending on motorist infrastructure even when there is evidence of large-scale motorist lawlessness, as there is here. My point was about society's perceptions of different groups of road users, and how the government seems to place a rather higher value on some lives than others.
Posted 11 years ago # -
@Dangerous - the map shows 5 levels of rate of Fatal or Serious accidents per vehicle distance travelled. As the black roads tend to have lower flows, the same accident frequency (per time and length of road) means they have a higher rate than on a busier road.
It doesn't show if an individual bend/crest/junction or whatever is contributing to a problem (there are other maps for that) - it shows which sections of road have the highest rate of accidents per vehicle travelling per distance. So the A9 may have had a lot of accidents but it has a lot of distance and quite a lot of traffic in some places (although not much at all in others, so no need for dualling) so it has a low rate of accidents per vehicle-distance.
The map doesn't show the risk to a driver - of the 14 crashes on the A708 mentioned above, at least 14 of the 16 casualties were motorcyclists and at most 2 were drivers. On other roads casualties include pedestrians, cyclists, and passengers, not just drivers.
Accidents are rare and usually the result of mistake by a road-user (often but not always a driver). Sometimes improving the road would have helped. Often improving the driver would have helped more easily, and more police and more cameras could do that.Posted 11 years ago # -
@crowriver
Yes should have used road-user not driver.My main point was that it does not show whether it is good or bad to spend money improving the A9.
Posted 11 years ago # -
@CalumCookabl
Where is the evidence of large-scale motorist lawlessness ?Posted 11 years ago # -
@Dangerous, either you are trolling deliberately or you haven't been reading this forum for long.
Evidence? What evidence?
Police shock at A9 offences
Sep 7 2012 by Perthshire Advertiser
Stunned police caught nearly 700 motorists speeding on the A9 during a 10-day clampdown.
A joint effort involving Tayside Police, Northern Constabulary, the Vehicle and Operator Service Agency and mobile speed camera units was aimed at driving down collisions which peak during August. By far the most prominent offence was speeding, with 687 people detected in the period. Next was driving while using a mobile phone, with 33 people caught.
Inspector Julie Robertson, said: “Despite our best efforts to encourage motorists to drive responsibly and within the speed limits, there is still an alarming number of people detected not doing so. It is disappointing that so many people are still using their mobile phones whilst driving.”
Also:
Drink-driver numbers rise in crackdown
Dramatic increase in drink-drive deaths
Dumfries and Galloway police 'disbelief' at drink driving rise
Posted 11 years ago # -
Dangerous - I don't define "Scotland's most dangerous road", it's a term used by politicians and the media to describe the A9, as I think the concept is nonsense. The reason I included the link to the EuroRAP map was to show that other Scottish roads are statistically more dangerous to drive along than the A9.
Accident statistics for fatal and serious accidents in Scotland are pretty robust. Traffic flow statistics are also pretty good - I'm sure you know that there is a nationwide network of over 1300 automatic traffic counters that produce these statistics, more details at:
http://www.transportscotland.gov.uk/road/traffic-count
You might not like what the statistics show, but they are the best available. Are you suggesting the Government shouldn't use it's own statistics to make decisions and just go with their gut? Obviously, that is what they have done with the A9 dualling, as no business case has been produced.
Personally, I think dualling the A9 is a waste of money as traffic flow on much of the route just doesn't justify the investment. If accidents are a concern then more targeted measures are probably appropriate (as suggested by Transport Scotland in the final report of the Strategic Transport Projects Review).
Unsurprisingly for a cycling forum, I think a huge chunk of this money should be invested in creating high quality cycling infrastructure - which tends to have a very high cost/benefit ratio.
Also, I would be wary of relying on "common sense" to justify anything. In my experience this is a fall back for people who have no actual evidence to support their arguments.
Posted 11 years ago # -
"Also, I would be wary of relying on "common sense" to justify anything. In my experience this is a fall back for people who have no actual evidence to support their arguments."
You don't mean politicians??...
Posted 11 years ago # -
@Morningsider
Where to start?Never said that I don't like what the statistics show. I do have a problem with people making wrong conclusions from them. The linked statistic is good for classifying the risk of a road-user in a single vehicle travelling on each road. I have clearly stated what that statistic does not show and therefore cannot be used for the purpose you indicated.
Of course Government should use its' own statistics. Only you suggested otherwise. They will have more information and use different more relevant statistics.
I used my "common sense" or experience to determine that a statistic normalised per vehicle excludes vehicle flow information.
Far from having no actual evidence consider the following simplified scenario.
BLACK Road - 1 Fatality per 100,000 vehicle kms
YELLOW Road - 1 Fatality per 1,000,000 vehicle kmsBoth BLACK and YELLOW roads are the same 1km length.
Using your logic you would improve the more dangerous Black road, the one with higher risk.
However we have not considered vehicle flow.
The decision to spend money to improve the Black or Yellow road to eliminate the fatality risk can only be made by including vehicle flow info.
If the Yellow Road is more than ten times busier than the Black road then it should be improved.
Clearly there has to be a "Scotland's most dangerous road" but yes it's mostly media hype.
Posted 11 years ago # -
Dangerous - I am aware of the point regarding vehicle flow - as it is helpfully set out on the EuroRAP map that I linked to. There are plenty of roads with traffic flows similar to the A9 that are identified as higher risk on the map, e.g. A702.
That's a side issue though - I don't think the £3bn to be spent on the A9 represents good value. If you want to improve tunk road safety then there are better investments. If you want to improve the country then investing in walking, cycling and the public realm will produce better results than any trunk road investment.
My concern is that by spending such a huge amount of the transport capital budget on one project, to be repaid to private firms over a 30 year period - the Scottish Government is effectively preventing large scale investment in walking and cycling for years to come, by diverting so much to trunk road spending.
What's your view on the A9 dualling?
Posted 11 years ago #
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