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Is dualling the A9 really that bad?

(597 posts)
  • Started 11 years ago by Wilmington's Cow
  • Latest reply from chdot

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  1. Dangerous
    Member

    @Morningsider

    If the objective is safety and to "save lives" then I think it's a wrong decision.

    Previously said that it is a political decision.

    MPs & MSPs can tell their constituents that they support dualling the A9 which is likely to help get themselves re-elected.

    The £3bn cost I am sure is not true. Googled the following and there a lot of different costs.
    M8 completion £510million (6 miles)
    M74 extension £692 million (5 miles)
    AWPR £653 million (30 miles)

    On balance I think it's a reasonable project.

    Not convinced by the proposal to dual the A96.

    Posted 11 years ago #

  2. chdot
    Admin

    "
    “In our eyes, average speed cameras over a 136-mile stretch with a 40mph restriction in many parts for HGVs will lead to more frustration, more accidents and more funerals.”

    "

    http://www.scotsman.com/news/transport/brown-disingenuous-over-a9-road-dualling-1-3078742

    Posted 11 years ago #

  3. cb
    Member

    Any ex-minister civil engineers out there who could tell the Wee Frees how to run their church?

    Posted 11 years ago #

  4. kaputnik
    Moderator

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-highlands-islands-23985582
    Most of A9 from Inverness to Perth to be dualled by 2022
    More than half the A9 between Perth and Inverness will be dual carriageway by 2022, Transport Minister Keith Brown has said.

    Following a meeting with a group of Free Church of Scotland ministers, Mr Brown said he was looking at ways to bringing forward some of the work.

    The church ministers met with Mr Brown to raise their concerns about the A9.

    They have called for the upgrade to be fast tracked
    The ministers have also criticised the Scottish government's plan for average speed cameras from Dunblane to Inverness with a 40mph speed restriction for HGVs.

    Nice to see that the timetabling for massive infrastructure projects can be so easily influenced by a noisy minority like the Free Church. If only noisy minorities like cyclists could get a look-in with the Meenister.

    Posted 11 years ago #

  5. crowriver
    Member

    Only if they happen to reside in key SNP marginal seats, kappers.

    Posted 11 years ago #

  6. wangi
    Member

    Like Edinburgh Eastern?

    Posted 11 years ago #

  7. chdot
    Admin

    "
    During the trial, two weekly freight trains will replace the 29 lorry trips normally required to take shipments of Scotland’s national drink from the heart of whisky country to Grangemouth.

    "

    http://www.scotsman.com/lifestyle/food-drink/features/speyside-distilleries-launch-whisky-trains-trial-1-3092391

    Posted 11 years ago #

  8. cb
    Member

    http://www.scotsman.com/news/transport/work-begins-on-improving-bend-on-a9-in-caithness-1-3133212

    Two bits of work happening on the A9 - one at Berriedale Braes and the other at Drumochter.

    Keith Brown on site at both. I wonder when he'll get bored of doing that.

    Amoungst other things, he said : "the biggest transport project, by cost, in Scotland’s history, and one that will exceed the cost of the M74, Queensferry Crossing, and AWPR combined"

    How come it's OK to boast about how much it's all costing? Shouldn't Edinburgh Council try that tactic with the Trams?

    Posted 11 years ago #

  9. DaveC
    Member

    Hmm don't like to talk politics on here but the current Gov't do appear to like talking about how much they are spending... !

    Posted 11 years ago #

  10. Morningsider
    Member

    cb - Always good to send a Minister on a site visit - keeps them out of the office and prevents opportunities for thinking of "good ideas".

    Posted 11 years ago #

  11. Instography
    Member

    His civil servants will be furious that he called it a cost and not an investment. Sounds much better if you call it investment.

    Posted 11 years ago #

  12. cc
    Member

    Jings. Some lorry drivers are threatening to obey the speed limit on the A9.

    Posted 11 years ago #

  13. Wilmington's Cow
    Member

    I love that the protest is to stick to the rules of the road, basically admitting they don't usually. I remember when this first came up some rep was rabbiting on about, 'Yes, we break the speed limit, but it's only because we want to help the traffic flow better'.

    Posted 11 years ago #

  14. DaveC
    Member

    'Yes, we break the speed limit, but it's only because we want to help the traffic flow better'.

    or

    Yes I shoot people but it keeps the population down and reduces strain on the system.

    But

    Some lorry drivers are threatening to obey the speed limit on the A9.

    Well if this reduces fatalities I'm all for it!

    Posted 11 years ago #

  15. crowriver
    Member

    Yes, someone should write to this group of 'protesters' congratulating them on their law abiding spirit and asking them to do it all year round.

    Oh wait, Transport Scotland are caving in and raising the HGV speed limit on the A9 to 50mph. That'll help the casualty figures then.

    Posted 11 years ago #

  16. cb
    Member

    "Oh wait, Transport Scotland are caving in and raising the HGV speed limit on the A9 to 50mph. That'll help the casualty figures then."

    Are they? Can they?

    Personally I think that's quite a sensible thing to do.

    Posted 11 years ago #

  17. crowriver
    Member

    My bad. They're not doing it yet, but are promising to "look into" it.

    Inverness-based HGV driver Conor McKenna, a spokesman for the lorry drivers, wouldn't say when the protest would start.

    He said: "All we are asking is to give us a trial at 50mph. Car drivers want it. It would improve safety on the A9. But without it there will be more driver frustration which leads to accidents."

    A Transport Scotland spokesman said: "As stated previously, the A9 Safety Group, Ministers and Police Scotland have not ruled out the introduction of 50mph speed limits for HGVs in future if evidence supports this. Further investigation work into the effects of increasing the HGV speed limit has been undertaken."

    A lot of provisos there, but perhaps sensibly, they are waiting on "evidence". I wonder if the "evidence" will be like that they found which failed to support Strict Liability?

    Posted 11 years ago #

  18. kaputnik
    Moderator

    So if we all want to cycle on the pavement, all we have to do is ask for a trial based on no evidence whatsoever and that makes it all good and proper?

    Posted 11 years ago #

  19. chdot
    Admin

    "I wonder if the "evidence" will be like that they found which failed to support Strict Liability?"

    I think the 'problem' was that there wasn't any evidence to be found - most countries have had SL for a long time.

    'No evidence (either way) so we are not even going to trial it.'

    Posted 11 years ago #

  20. slowcoach
    Member

    Re the story (linked by CC) in the Herald 27/11/13 - that's the same lorry driver "threatening" not to speed (a civil obedience campaign?) that said the same thing in the Scotsman 03/08/13, and in the Highland News 15/11/12, so I wonder why the Herald thinks it is still newsworthy?

    Posted 11 years ago #

  21. crowriver
    Member

    Well, it only took a week to "review the evidence" and cave in to the haulage lobby! Wow! Spot the difference in the response to calls for Strict Liability...

    ----

    Higher HGV speed limit trial and cameras for A9

    Lorry drivers will be allowed to increase their speed from 40 to 50mph on single carriageway stretches of the A9 on a trial basis next year.

    The pilot will be introduced at the same time a system of average speed cameras becomes operational on the road between Dunblane and Inverness.

    Hauliers argue that driving at 50mph reduces tailbacks on the route.

    HGVs are already permitted to travel at that speed on the few sections of dual carriageway on the A9.

    The trial and average speed cameras are measures aimed at raising safety and easing traffic flows while work is done to upgrade the road.

    The A9 from Inverness to Perth is due to be fully dual carriageway by 2025. The cost of the work is expected to run to £3bn.

    Transport Minister Keith Brown said the pilot was dependent on the introduction of the cameras.

    He said: "An extensive review of the available evidence has been undertaken in considering this pilot and we have also taken the views of A9 users, the business community and hauliers into account.

    "It is clear that the average speed camera systems will bring safety improvements to the route and the pilot will bring operational benefits and may further improve driver behaviour by reducing frustration."

    Phil Flanders, of Road Haulage Association, said: "We have been working for this since the Scottish Parliament Freight Inquiry report was published recommending a trial.

    "We will be doing all we can to ensure the pilot is a success and that it will benefit not just the freight industry but the whole of Scotland's economy."

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-highlands-islands-25236767

    Posted 10 years ago #

  22. Kim
    Member

    Would dualling the A9 save lives? No.

    Just look at the Ballinluig Junction on the A9, some years ago there was a shocking fatal crash. After much hand ringing and cries of something must be done, a large amount of money was spent (£15m) and we were told that "Journeys along the A9 through the Ballinluig area will be safer and quicker due to the increase to the speed limit."

    Within a year of the "upgrade" there was another shocking fatal crash very similar to the one that had caused the out cry in the first place, only this time, it was quietly ignored.

    The problem with the A9 is that the police don't have the resource to effectively patrol it. By dualing it you simply encourage people to drive faster, and in a more reckless manor. When the M25 first opened, the Surrey Police used to call it the Highway of Death (although not in public), the reason was the formation of the so called One Hour Club. This unofficial body was open to anyone with a fast car and a reckless attitude to driving, to join all you had to do was circumnavigate the M25 in an hour or less (the M25 is 117 miles in length). Crashes were frequent, generally one a week, and always fatal. The thing that brought the One Hour Club to an end, was not police patrols, they just didn't have the resources, it was the road reaching capacity and gridlocking.

    Once the A9 is dualed a similar One Hour Club will form to race from Perth to Inverness, the difference is the A9 is not at capacity in its current state and there is no chance of it reaching capacity as a continues carriageway.

    The economic argument for dualing the A9 is even weaker, upgrading the railway (or just taking the highland railways back to where they were in 1960) would have a greater impact on the Highland economy.

    Posted 10 years ago #

  23. chdot
    Admin

    http://www.scotsman.com/news/transport/weather-a9-closed-after-gritter-and-car-collide-1-3289257

    Posted 10 years ago #

  24. Its_Me_Knees
    Member

    Mrs Knees and myself were caught in the tailback ...about 50 minutes without moving and then a plough cleared a crosslink between the two carriageways and we were redirected onto the Southbound side with a promise that the A9 northbound wouldn't reopen 'for hours'. Glad to see there were no injuries as the number of ambulances and police vehicles that made their way through the tailback suggested otherwise.

    The majority of drivers twigged/knew what had happened and we all lined up on the inside lane so that emergency vehicles could get through. Depressingly, and inevitably, there were nonetheless a few idiots who thought this communal responsibility didn't apply to them, and a gaggle composed of an Audi and a Merc actually tried to execute Scotland's biggest queue jump by following a police 4x4 up the outside lane. Much to everyone's amusement, the police driver slowed to a halt, got out, and told Mr.Audi in no uncertain terms that he wasn't going any further, obliging both Audi and Merc to sit rather obviously, and awkwardly, on the A9's version of the naughty step for the remainder of the jam...

    Apologies for an essentially c*r-related post..

    Posted 10 years ago #

  25. Tulyar
    Member

    While I was working on the Callander to Strathyre path the A84 was improved over a couple of stages up past Loch Lubnaig and beyond.

    The local observations proved correct. The old road, with the need to remain attentive, adjust your speed for bends etc had a few crashes but by far the greater concentrations were the clusters of crashes that migrated to the start and finish of the improved roads.

    As far as I'm aware there has been little research into this, but clearly the STATS 19 records, Police, and breakdown recovery call-outs and insurance claims should provide the basis of a review of a route - such as the A89 via the Laggan, or the A84/A85 between Stirling and Crianlarich, to review the crash clusters against the progress of delivering the sterile 'widened' carriageway and flattened verges of an improved road.

    With less and less traffic using the A9 - some times I think you could drive the 108 miles Perth-Inverness and not see a single other vehicle on the road, any rational administration would question the cost of providing even a single carriageway and keeping it clear of snow and other issues (clearing culverts of washed down scree is an unseen but big issue).

    Lets have a study on crash migration with road improvement Thesis anyone?

    Posted 10 years ago #

  26. kenny
    Member

    @Kim There was a "One Hour Club" in Inverness when the A9 to Perth as it is now was completed back in the eighties. 108 miles from roundabout to roundabout.

    @Tuylar Are there stats showing fewer vehicles on the A9?

    The only time I drive the A9 now is when there's no bike space on the train.

    Posted 10 years ago #

  27. cb
    Member

    http://www.scotsman.com/news/if-the-a9-can-be-dualled-why-not-tracks-too-1-3295768

    Posted 10 years ago #

  28. DaveC
    Member

    The picture at the top says Traffic on the A9, byt the sign is clearly a blue one which indicates a Motorway. Looks like its just NW of Grangmouth, which is usually the busiest section when we drive towards Calander.

    Posted 10 years ago #

  29. kaputnik
    Moderator

    You're right, the picture is the M9. Which is not the A9.

    Note also most of the traffic is LGVs.

    Posted 10 years ago #

  30. Mr Ken
    Member

    Both Holland& Denmark manage to provide great cycling facilities, be cycle aware and build some pretty major motorways into the bargain, the two aren't necessarily diametrically opposed.

    I don't think it helps for pro cycling groups to be too anti road/road-widening. Sure we need far more cycle friendly infrastructure but we won't get much support (which we absolutely need) from the non-cycling majority if it's only ever about me/us.

    Every time I have visitors (most of whom are regular cyclists) from mainland Europe they can't believe that the A9 isn't dualled in its entireity.

    Worried about speed, then implement an average speed camera network, they work a treat on the M6 etc. etc. roadworks. And smart tech coupled with punitative/incentivising insurance policies will be here well before any major dualling work is finished.

    Posted 10 years ago #

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