That is still the case frommquickngoogle. I retrat my earlier remarks. Not sure why I thought CEC was minority shareholder. Other arms length council company run conference centres etc.
CityCyclingEdinburgh Forum » General Edinburgh
Sustrans' plans for city centre bus routes
(59 posts)-
Posted 11 years ago #
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Yes Edinburgh Council has 91% of LB and restructuring Lothian Buses to have a greater say in the running of the Bus-Tram parent company (particularly executive pay)
Posted 11 years ago # -
So in summary, the outcome of an integrated modern contactless ticketing system valid across both buses and trams, is simply a matter of the council wishing to make it happen. So why would they not?
Posted 11 years ago # -
Not sure, but wasn't one of the reasons put forward for getting rid of all the on-street bus ticket machines that they wouldn't be compatible with the system purchased for the tram?
Posted 11 years ago # -
Nothing to do with the fact it took a driver longer to take and stamp a ticket than it takes for them to press a button after someone pays cash on board. Had they been set up to issue change I could have understood the machines, but as they were...
Posted 11 years ago # -
And I thought it was just in Springfield and South Lanarkshire that fat Tony and Mayor Quimby were in each others pockets... Well there you go!
Posted 11 years ago # -
@Nelly. I'd agree that Lothian Buses provide a decent service. My comment was more a comparison between London and dereg'ed bus services across the UK.
Posted 11 years ago # -
If you think the Oyster card is good then you should see the Tokyo Suica card (can be used in many places across Japan) - you can use that on trains trams, buses, metro, many shops, vending machines etc. It was introduced in 2001 and you can now get a virtual card as an app for a smartphone.
Honestly, its embarrassing how far behind we are on this. The "Saltire Card" has been all but ditched as too difficult to do.
Posted 11 years ago # -
Yeah, Suica is great. You just beep your phone in shops or in the metro. Fantastic.
Posted 11 years ago # -
Honestly, its embarrassing how far behind we are on this. The "Saltire Card" has been all but ditched as too difficult to do.
UK public sector doesn't have a good track record on IT project procurement and implementation. Maybe something to do with the way decisions are made?
Posted 11 years ago # -
"Maybe something to do with the way decisions are made?"
More likely why decisions aren't made!
Is CEC/LB/SG trying to develop their own 'unique solution for special circumstances' (like 'superior' tram design which meant surplus ones were unsalable) or just unwilling to pay the price for a proven system??
Posted 11 years ago # -
London is ~30 miles across and it's only just over 300 miles (as the crow flies) from London to Edinburgh, so if you like, Oyster is already 10% of the way here.
The idea that the system can't easily be implemented in Edinburgh is just laughable.
It's purely a question of politics (and money) - we could buy in identical cards, card readers and other infrastructure from the same providers that run Oyster for TfL.
Oyster allows some really cool stuff, like traffic shaping (see the pink validators that discount commuters who don't travel into zone 1 to change trains, for instance)
Posted 11 years ago # -
Nearly all Scotland's rail traffic is carried by a single franchise, which is regulated by Transport Scotland (not Westminster Government). There are also about 4 or 5 big bus companies (Arriva, Stagecoach, First, Lothian, Citylink) which probably account for the lions share of all bus journies. This should be a piece of cake compared to London!
Posted 11 years ago # -
kaputnik - it's even worse than that. Every bus in Scotland carries a standardised ticket machine and card reader, paid for by the taxpayer to allow the national concessionary fares scheme to operate. The operators also have the backroom hardware/software that sends all the ticket info to Transport Scotland for reimbursement purposes. It's quite difficult to see what the real barriers to this becoming a reality might be, given that such systems exist in other countires.
Perhaps Tulyar or slowcoach might be able to shed some light on this?
Posted 11 years ago # -
Many years ago, someone suggested making buses free.
* It would be easier for people to switch from bus to bus - reducing the overlap in routes in favour of greater frequency.
* No need for the driver to take change and give out tickets (or scan passes). Making the buses faster.
* Would make cars even less cost-effective compared to public transport, reducing congestion/pollution. (And making the buses go faster.)
And the cost of this would be around the same as the cost of the current bus service - because, after all, we pay for that via fares and subsidies.
(Though, by making it "free", more of the cost would be taken up by higher rate tax payers - a wealth distribution to lower income people.)
Posted 11 years ago # -
it's even worse than that. Every bus in Scotland carries a standardised ticket machine and card reader, paid for by the taxpayer to allow the national concessionary fares scheme to operate. The operators also have the backroom hardware/software that sends all the ticket info to Transport Scotland for reimbursement purposes. It's quite difficult to see what the real barriers to this becoming a reality might be, given that such systems exist in other countires.
Presumably the Saltire card would just implement similar card readers across rail services? Or is that too simple?
Posted 11 years ago # -
Nevermind Tokyo and 2001, Hong Kong has had its Octopus card since 1997. This is hardly Buck Rogers stuff...
I suspect some of the dragging of feet is due to the fear of technology, but most of it is probably because it's in the "too difficult" box. Govt would have to negotiate with a number of transport providers, who no doubt will not pay for any of the machines/processes because their contracts with the govt say they don't have to.
Conceptually, it's probably easier for a city to implement.
Posted 11 years ago # -
Lothian buses could implement a 40 minute transferrable ticket rule (for example) tomorrow if it really wanted to.
It would require bus drivers being able to read the time on a ticket presented to them, adding on forty minutes (the tricky bit) and comparing it to the current time.
Would that result in reduced revenue for them, or fuller buses, or ...?
Posted 11 years ago # -
In Amsterdam, the strippenkaarts (now replaced) showed the time it expired so all the conductor has to do is to know the current time.
Posted 11 years ago # -
even simpler, make it an hour, and make it mandatory for all LB drivers to be able to add 1 to any other real number
Posted 11 years ago # -
I suspect some of the dragging of feet is due to the fear of technology, but most of it is probably because it's in the "too difficult" box.
Cyclign infrastructure is "too difficult" or "won't happen overnight". But then again, so is the Forth Replacement Crossing, the A9 Dualling, the M74 extension, EGIP, the Borders Railway. Yet somehow those aren't stumbling blocks but they are for things that are infinitely cheaper, easier and faster to do.
Posted 11 years ago # -
It's always been a puzzle to me ever since moving to Edinburgh in 1995 why Lothian wouldn't allow a transferrable ticket system. I remember using one in a much smaller French city when I went on a school exchange there in the late 80s. Ticket just needs to show time purchased and time it expires. So so simple.
Someone mentioned that the LB service works great for them when they need to get "up town". I agree, it's when you want to get "across town" that it becomes a problem, due to the massive congestion on Princes Street caused by the fact that almost every bus route in the city runs along that one mile of road.
Leith Walk and the Bridges have a similar issue to a lesser degree. Interchanges and transferrable bus/tram/bus tickets have to be the way forward. The change-resistant folks that grumble about having to get off one bus and onto another would soon change their tune when their journey times tumble and their shopping streets become more pleasant places to spend time.
Posted 11 years ago # -
Of course an "Oyster" type system would be even better than transferrable tickets but no doubt the council/government would find a way to arse that up while handing millions to whichever private sector firm got the contract.
Posted 11 years ago # -
No, this sounds good but thickos would no doubt look at your current ticket and ask you to buy another after an hour, even though you'd not changed bus. Kaputnik said himself that it used to take 1.5 hours to travel across Edinburgh. This is why companies are introducing smart technology, so their driver 'don't have to think'!
Posted 11 years ago # -
Does anyone know where to find detailed maps of princes st? I wanted to complete the east end of princes st. http://i.imgur.com/GeP7YnC.jpg
Posted 11 years ago # -
@i (@me?)
I can get detailed maps courtesy of the University.
Might be some licensing issues, but PM me if you're interested.
Robert
Posted 11 years ago # -
Interestingly, London are starting to (very slowly!) move away from Oyster, in the direction of Contactless Credit/Debit Cards. In fact, these Contactless cards will allow weekly capping before it comes to Oyster (http://www.mayorwatch.co.uk/boris-no-weekly-oyster-capping-until-2015/201326797). Oyster isn't standards-compliant and is a proprietary system (that costs money). However, it's 10 years old and has served London very very well.
Using Contactless bank cards will take away admin burden from TfL (or TfE, hypothetically). However, I'm not sure if the current readers on buses for the National Concessionary Scheme would be compatible or not.
On the original subject of Princes Street, there should be no doubt that the number of buses should dramatically decrease. If that gave room for segregated cycling (on Princes Street or a parallel street) it'd be a great move.
Posted 11 years ago # -
Subway in Glasgow is going for oyster type smart tickets. In transition just now so no machines. Sold us day tickets yesterday for price of returns so I left mine on the train just in case anyone catching it back to glasgow could make use of them. Tho the slow train has very few Edinburgh to Glasgow travellers as they have two faster options and one that takes roughly same time and goes to the west end anyway,
The subway in Glasgow is really to get people from city centre to Hillhead. The restof the circle sees much less traffic
Posted 11 years ago # -
@Robert, thanks. So far I collected all the maps the city council website had of the tram layout.
Posted 11 years ago #
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