CityCyclingEdinburgh was launched on the 27th of October 2009 as "an experiment".
IT’S TRUE!
CCE is 15years old!
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Trying to make sense of the nonsense of highways and transport in the UK. Chartered Civil Engineer, works in local authority highways dept. & cycles a bit too!
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http://www.therantyhighwayman.blogspot.co.uk
Curious layout with useful stuff.
Must read for every 'highway engineer' - if only they would look...
You know I've been banging on about cycle provision in Livingston for a bit. No I don't have thoughts of moving back, nor do I have visions of becoming 'an advocate' (please god never let that happen, for ALL of our sakes ;) ), but I have been wondering about 60s/70s new town planners, and 'did they get the planning right'. Stevenage is another example of good planning apparently gone bad.
Got me thinking about a wee 'infrastructure blog' post. Going to Livingston, cycling from train station to my old estate, all off road, then to local schools/shops off road, (again these journeys locally tend to be walking.). Then to work places and shopping centre using all off road routes.
I want to see if Livingston really is the 'utopia' that I remember of my youth (bearing in mind I was brought up in Knightsridge East which is apparently the worst area in the town - according to Wikipedia, so it must be true -, never seemed that bad to me), what the problems are, if any,in getting around by bike, and contrasting that with the apparently 'nice' area I now live
I've been having a discussion on Twitter with some folks about arranging a trip out to Livingston next weekend to look at this. Anyone here (a head cam would be nice) willing to do an Edinburgh comparison, and join in?
I'm not intending to compare social ill's or housing provision, just the infrastructure that is available to use to residents, and have a think about why it isn't used.
Again, any volunteers?
@bc
That sounds like a very worthwhile trip/project.
I look forward to reading the conclusions.
Here's a look at Stevenage which is a similar case down in England http://waronthemotorist.wordpress.com/2013/07/08/stevenage-is-not-britain/
Quite an interesting spat between joe dunkley and Carlton Reid on that link Sally tho they do seem to agree despite joe saying they don't and that Carlton is changing his opinions?
I think Livingston is quite like Stevenage from joe dunckley's argument that the traffic in Livingston flows freely to the malls. So people use their cars. This is alsomcarlton's argument that you should make it harder for people to use their cars.
Unlike Stevenage, Livingston cycle network not meant for other vehicles. Stevenage allowed mopeds the one time I was there which made being a pedestrian tricky as no footpath other than the cyclepaths
I guess what I want to explore, is why did cycling NEVER take off in Livingston? This is the street view of my old street:
That car park pretty much looks now, as it did in the 70s, only a hand full of cars. Car ownership is/was always pretty low, we never had a car in our family until I was in my 20s (in fact my car was the first), and that was pretty typical of most of my peers.
The other less obvious, but interesting thing about that car park, is that there are 8 spaces to serve 14 houses. It is also away from the houses, and the walking/cycling paths. Livingston wasn't built for car ownership.
We walked everywhere, or got the bus. So, in a place where the walking/cycling infrastructure is 'built in', and people don't drive, why do they still not cycle? Why...?
In my case, it was a good 20 minutes quicker to get to the Centre 3 miles away by bike, than it would have been waiting for a bus.
Actually, that article, and some comments from our very own Dave are quite freaky in some respects as I've been thinking about this for some time.
I can comment from 40 years of living in Livingston, knowing the off road infrastructure intimately, and knowing the car routes intimately, that the path/cycle routes are more direct, and more linked than the on road routes.
Livingston is essentially a grid, you have 2 main roads running North to South. One is a Dual Carriageway which links the M8, and A71, the other is a more minor road which links Adambrae with Deans. There are other main roads which bisect the estates East to West.
Within those main roads there is an 'S' shaped minor road network which connects the various streets within the estates. There are no 'rat runs', every residential street ends in a dead end.
The core path network follows the same 'grid' pattern as the main roads. They are in the most part invisible to the road network, as they run through the middle of all estates to the major work, and shopping areas. They are for the most part 3 meters wide and tarmaced. The residential streets are served with more paths (which are all shared use, 2m wide, and a mixture of paved and tarmac). The residential areas are mostly off road, streets with car parks at end.
As I said earlier there are about 2/3 the number of car parking spaces as there are houses. These are not all used. In most cases it would be possible to get from any house in the town to a work area, or main shopping area at least as quickly as you could in a car.
With regard to local shops, and primary schools, in the estates at least it is easier to walk than it is to drive (dead end streets (to cars) as mentioned above).
Most of the primary schools do not have a drop off area. In fact my old primary school had 2 gated entrances no where near roads, and a 'back entrance' which was the teachers car park, and not available to the general public.
In the case of Livingston, I honestly do believe it was built for walking/cycling, and not to travel freely by car.
Of course, the new 'posh' estates (it still troubles me that I live in an 'equivalent' posh estate elsewhere), are car centric, drive straight up to your double garage.
Again, I'm planning a trip to Livingston next week, any volunteers?
a sneak peak....
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Livingston was built for people
Now I want to move onto the guts of this blog post, what I really want to talk about. Livingston's extensive, off road, direct, and well connected 'core path network'. I don't want to fill you with any fantasy of Livingston as some wondrous place where there is no crime, or deprivation, or social ill's. To many people, Livingston looks grim (the images used above may even confirm many a stereotype), I also sometimes think that when I go back too, forget about all of that though.
I want to try and get across the idea that in an infrastructure sense, from a walking, or cycling perspective Livingston should be held up as a 'Model' town, and when we build new places, we should look to Livingston for inspiration, I honestly do think that the new town planners of that time were right on the money.
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It's not all positive, many questions still to be answered. Maybe some will be next week. Maybe those paragraphs will read differently after my trip.....
@baldcyclist - that is interesting as it does sound as if Livingstone was built along Dutch lines - the road layout you describe is reminiscent of what's being described here:
http://bicycledutch.wordpress.com/2013/08/08/making-a-1960s-street-grid-fit-for-the-21st-century/
Not sure I could make it to Livingston from Dumfries but I'd be interested to find out more.
Edited to add:
I do wonder whether, if all the infrastructure is in place, a concerted campaign could actually build significant cycling somewhere like Livingston - group rides, travel planning, training, advertising; all the things that we usually see as pointless or at best temporary in places where it isn't there. Or maybe we should just all move to Livingston...
Paths in Livingston have various different feels. I used to take the almondell path from east Calder which is an interesting country park stretching over many miles around the almond river. Gets quite former industrial as presume several mills were in situ, also a feint whiff of sewage as the path network climbs up to midcalder water treatment centre then snakes sustrans special through the houses of Livingston towards the shopping centres, you then find fairly straight footpaths over grassy areas down to the new council buildings then round the back and on to the old village of Livingston with the farm and the shale oil museum, from there you have the fake stone circle in quite a gloomy valley but push on and you get to another country park which is my favourite as not down in the river valley but upon the moor, so more sun and indeed I always feel a few more people walking dogs etc. this route takes you quite quickly to the M8 pyramids.
All interesting but tad lonely, gloomy, and tiny suggestion of mild peril at some points. For my work purposes now I can do all of this route much more quickly on the parallel roads. However, before I was familiar with routes and less used to traffic I found the paths very useful.
Now I go lizzienbricenthen murieston then onto the back roads towards Harburn. Good thing about Livy is the easy access to quiet roads for longer cycling trips.
@Baldcyclist I'm not sure I could manage a weekend jaunt to Livingston... you've seen my rant about access to my particular office in Eliburn, which does not tie in with your experience, for good reasons I think.
I've explored some of the local off road routes during lunchtime runs, (after a couple of years of always going the same way). Happy to contribute routes/experience if it helps.
@Gembo That would be the Route 75 path. It may look 'grim', but after the Centre that path runs along all of the 'posh' areas so is pretty safe, albeit maybe a bit secluded at night. I may use that rout back from the Centre to Livingston North.
@Fimm What I wan't to do will probably take more than one day, so I could maybe do a weekday lunchtime time chat?
One of the things I want to explore is the difference between 'new', and 'old' Livingston.
I imagine my route will take me from Livingston North train station > Knightsridge > Houston Industrial Estate > Ladywell > Eilliburn > Kirkton/Livi Village > Howden > Craigshill > Centre > Route 75 back up to Deans South > Livingston North.
So basically criss crossing North side of Livingston East to West. I want to do it all off of main roads, and preferably at least 95% on shared infrastructure.
I also want to take a Strava trace of cycling / driving /bus from my old house to the Centre which is about 3 miles away. My old house is almost as far away from the Centre as is possible to be.
'Old' council estate Livingston is very good, as soon as you set foot out the door you are on shared infrastructure. New Livingston, although connected to the 'core path network', I don't think (know) if they are as connected. I'm not sure every path is cycle infrastructure.
When I started cycling in Edinburgh, the notion of 'pavement cycling' being bad was bazaar to me. Of course it makes sense now, because I know why, and there are more people, but when I lived in Livingston I was 'clipped in' before I left my front path
Really interesting. As a regular Livingston visitor I was unaware of this. These paths dont seem to show up on google maps cycling overlay.
@tammytroot Yes, I've noticed that too, looking at this wee project I thought I would look at some mapping, made some comments on Twitter....
I've just made the images clickable links for space management.
[EDIT links seem to be broken, need to go to meeting. I'll fix in a bit]
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Imagine you have just moved to Livingston, dropped off your kids at school, and want to cycle to work in the Industrial estate. Options?
Look at mapping options, get directions? Go from here to here pic.twitter.com/nO4F9xAFY8
Local knowledge, oh don't have that, just moved. But here is the direct cycle able route anyway…. pic.twitter.com/SOX1S328dT
This is @googlemaps route, not even close, a mile detour… pic.twitter.com/PkStkE5ze4
and @cyclestreets not much better, can't even drop pin on the paths, at least it does give a localish option.. pic.twitter.com/FoEoNY4qro
Although @cyclestreets is using @OSMScotland maps. It seems only to be picking up 'Cycle routes', and not paths which are designated as cycle routes.
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Funnily enough, no word back from Google maps. Cyclestreets, and OSMScotland did respond. My suggested route should now be on Cyclestreets. THere are still many gaps, but the OSM maps are much better than Google.
@Baldcyclist, yes, a lunchtime meetup would be possible. (No headcam I'm afraid). I'll drop you a PM.
@baldcyclist I took the bairn to the Almond Valley Heritage centre using train/bike from Edinburgh a few months ago.
Foolishly, I assumed there'd be some signposts, but this, combined with patchy mobile coverage meant I got a wee bit lost.
Despite this I was also struck by how much potential there is in Livingstone, and think that a concerted effort to improve signage and promote some routes to places could make an impact.
The paths are there - but it might take some effort to make it feel like a coherent network as it felt disjointed to me.
It's probably eminently fixable by sorting the wee thinks like missing dropped kerbs in some some places and an absence of reassuring way markers.
But it did occur to me that it's exactly the kind of place where an Innertube style map could work really well - probably better than in Edinburgh - as a joined up network is already in place.
@Baldcyclist, will look at links at home. Works net nanny forbids twitter.
Those links again....
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Imagine you have just moved to Livingston, dropped off your kids at school, and want to cycle to work in the Industrial estate. Options?
Look at mapping options, get directions? Go from here to here https://twitter.com/baldcyclist/status/366152944527220736/photo/1
Local knowledge, oh don't have that, just moved. But here is the direct cycle able route anyway…. https://twitter.com/baldcyclist/status/366153232524902400/photo/1
This is @googlemaps route, not even close, a mile detour… https://twitter.com/baldcyclist/status/366153472556560384/photo/1
and @cyclestreets not much better, can't even drop pin on the paths, at least it does give a localish option.. https://twitter.com/baldcyclist/status/366153737439440896/photo/1
Although @cyclestreets is using @OSMScotland maps. It seems only to be picking up 'Cycle routes', and not paths which are designated as cycle routes.
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Funnily enough, no word back from Google maps. Cyclestreets, and OSMScotland did respond. My suggested route should now be on Cyclestreets. THere are still many gaps, but the OSM maps are much better than Google.
"but the OSM maps are much better than Google"
As I'm sure you know, anyone can update OSM - which gets used by CycleStreets a few days later.
This may be one other positive result from your investigations.
It's not going to take long to do my comparison of Burntisland. That wee blue dotted line along the bottom, that is ALL of the shared infrastructure available to me to use in Burntisland, all 120 seconds of it:
As I'm sure you know, anyone can update OSM
I have been over the last few days... ;)
Surely all that hypothetical new Livingston resident needs to do is to buy a Spokes cycle map of West Lothian?
DdF lives in West Lothian, as do a number of other Spokes members: their local knowledge has mapped all the cycle paths in the county, including Livingston!
Must admit I found it dashed handy myself for getting to a few places in Uphall, Broxburn, and Livington without having to dodge quite so many cars.
There's also a cycle map of Livingston itself.
It's a 1998 Harvey Map, so there may be a more recent reprint, but it would be a good starting point.
Available from Amazon - use the search on the left near the top of this page, and look for "Livingston for Cyclists".
If you write to the council, they may have old copies available for free too, but that won't support CCE...
Robert
That the SPOKES maps are still dead tree format only is somewhat frustrating.
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Petition calling for the scrapping of car parking charges at the Livingston Centre
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http://www.ipetitions.com/petition/petition-to-call-for-the-scrapping-of-car-parking
By a Labour MP.
I have not looked at the petition, but the car parking charges are fairly new - less than a year or so maybe. We go down from the office at lunchtime (by car) sometimes.
I can't see them scrapping the charges anytime soon, as they were introduced solely for income generation.
The company which runs the Centre got it's self into a bit of financial strife by building the new bit 'The Elements' just as the financial crash hit, that combined with the fact they bought the 'McArthur Glen' not long before, and with all of the empty units there now is because of the financial crisis, they NEED the income.
Was down there a few weeks ago, did seem busier than of late, maybe the recovery has started??
"That the SPOKES maps are still dead tree format only is somewhat frustrating."
An offline, smartphone friendly (i.e. zoomable) version would be fab. Stick it on the app store (and Android equivalent) for 69p. Job's a good 'un.
One glance at the Spokes website tells you such a technological move might be some way off.
I've been banging on about this all day on Twitter, sorry ;) , went for a cycle...
Can see results @Baldcyclist or #LiviCycle on Twitter.
Blog post to follow...
An offline, smartphone friendly (i.e. zoomable) version would be fab. Stick it on the app store (and Android equivalent) for 69p. Job's a good 'un.
One glance at the Spokes website tells you such a technological move might be some way off.
Maybe someone with App development skills might like to suggest this to Spokes, and volunteer to do this job? I imagine the master files of the maps are in digital format.
I may be old-fashioned but I like a paper map. No need for batteries, shock-proof, only a fiver to replace if you lose or damage it.
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