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Brought down by a tram track

(80 posts)
  • Started 10 years ago by Stickman
  • Latest reply from I were right about that saddle

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  1. Tulyar
    Member

    Roughly right about expected life of rails and track structure IF they are built to a robust standard, and if there are no severe curves horizontal and vertical (or both together)

    Several of the new generation tram systems have had to replace track which has basically worn away/fallen apart.

    The quality of some of the Edinburgh embedded track is poor compared to that being delivered ahead of programme and within budget in Manchester.

    Infilled flangeway track can be installed by using the non-grooved version of the rail or cutting off the keeper and groove, but this also required a space at least 140mm deep the full width between the rails. The track designs currently specified for the UK all put a huge lump of reinforced high-strength concrete between the rails, making retro-fitting and other detail rather difficult and expensive.

    There are 3 (or 4) ways that a tram rail can bring down a cyclist, and not all are due to the groove.

    BTW @condor2378 I think you were actually brought down by the sunken metal duct cover alongside the track at this point, which is directly under your bike after the fall. It is also part of the tram works though.

    Posted 8 years ago #
  2. PS
    Member

    BTW @condor2378 I think you were actually brought down by the sunken metal duct cover alongside the track at this point, which is directly under your bike after the fall. It is also part of the tram works though.

    I don't think so - you can see condor2378 start to fall before the bike reaches the duct cover. Momentum carries the bike onto it. At 6 seconds in you can see the duct cover ahead but the fall is already in progress.

    Posted 8 years ago #
  3. condor2378
    Member

    @PS is correct. The fall is very much already in progress at 6 seconds and the cover is in front. IIRC it felt like the front wheel started slipping out from under me to the right first then the wheel aligned and got caught in the track, but by this time I was already in an unrecoverable descent.

    I was more concerned with being run over from following vehicles as soon as I was down as the momentum dumped me in the left hand lane from the right hand lane. Thankfully drivers were following at a distance that day.

    Posted 8 years ago #
  4. HankChief
    Member

    A colleague came down on the tram tracks outside Haymarket this morning :-(

    They managed to do it in front of the Children In Need Rickshaw Challenge entourage so was well looked after by their medics...

    Posted 6 years ago #
  5. jules878
    Member

    Met one of my students today who came down on tram tracks at Haymarket (outside the station I think rather than Haymarket Yards).

    She has a broken arm, damaged/lost three teeth and suffered from concussion as a result. She's also got nasty grazes on her chin and face.

    (Not sure when this was, but sometime between Weds last week and today.)

    Have suggested she has a chat with Cycle Law Scotland, and uses the info on this Spokes page to report this serious accident to the Council.

    http://www.spokes.org.uk/documents/public-transport/tram/

    Hopefully all the info/links/email addresses on this Spokes page are still current....

    Posted 5 years ago #
  6. Rosie
    Member

    @jules878 - That's too bad. All too common, I'm afraid. Please do ask her to email spokes@spokes.org.uk as well as to the Council. We keep a record of tram track crashes.

    Posted 5 years ago #
  7. jules878
    Member

    OK I will do. I promised to email the link to Spokes page (but discover I don't have her address! Silly me!). I hope to get from elsewhere, but if not I'll hand over info next Weds.

    I know accidents are common, and painful, but not always result in quite so much damage to the rider... Hopefully she will follow up.

    Posted 5 years ago #
  8. rbrtwtmn
    Member

    We need to remember that the magic paint at Haymarket improved matters somewhat... but from a very low starting point. Injuries continue. I passed an injured man recently (he had plenty of company, I wasn't being heartless).

    What happened to the legal case?

    Posted 5 years ago #
  9. rodm
    Member

    The 2 legal cases are bing heard in May 2019.

    Posted 5 years ago #
  10. rbrtwtmn
    Member

    I'm curious - has anyone else been thinking that Haymarket would be much safer if the westbound traffic was officially funnelled into one lane, with hatchings or some similar markings funnelling people cycling to the left of the tracks, and people driving to the right (well away from the bike lane).

    My thinking is this:

    People cycling across the tracks continue to take risks, crossing at speed and at a very acute angle (almost in parallel). People continue to get really quite badly injured (as above - quite possibly gaining life-long if not life-defining injury). Further deaths remain quite possible.

    One main reason for people doing this is pressure of traffic on your tail/shoulder - we've all experienced the way that, free from traffic pressure, we relax and take it more easy. Currently that traffic pressure remains if you're in the left hand hook lane - you never know whether someone's right on your tail (quite possibly a bus, or someone driving their taxi as a weapon).

    One reason that people don't choose the left hand hooked cycle lane is because it takes you out of the traffic stream, and re-joining isn't particularly pleasant - not least when there are buses pulling in immediately afterwards.

    Motor traffic almost always joins to become a single stream straight after the main traffic signals (rather than remaining as two streams, side by side). The removal of the early-design stupid centreline just before hitting the tram tracks was helpful here. Therefore the consequences for traffic movement are minimal.

    This would help to protect the entry to the drop off area (where risk of a hook by a taxi remains).

    This would emphasise the risks, acting as warning signage - the current warning signs are utterly pathetic when you look at the number of people injured here.

    (I have a simple child's-drawing type image available, but nowhere to upload it to - can anyone help?)

    Posted 5 years ago #
  11. Tulyar
    Member

    @jules878 move swiftly but the area outside Haymarket station is massively covered by CCTV but this is usually wiped on a periodic cycle - technically with GDPR you have up to 30 days to obtain images in which you appear but some systems wipe after 10 days, or less.

    I did look at Haymarket, on a ride-through check on the track conditions Westbound on Friday night, noting that the deadly steel road plates right in the place where most people are riding have now been on Princes Street and Shandwick Place for at least 2 YEARS. There are some nasty cracks opening up where the concrete abuts tarmac outside the Portrait Gallery by the Mound junction plus the massively sunken (6"+) section of Princes Street by the bus stops.

    Here's a potentially deadly strip of broken lumps of concrete across the junction where traffic turns from Morrison Street into W Maitland Street clattering as the bus runs over it

    https://ci-39730300063-56a9f1f9.http.atlas.cdn.yimg.com/flickr6/52921671@N08/39730300063/39730300063_720p.mp4?dt=flickr&x=1550970031&m=video%2Fmp4&fn=39730300063_720p&bt=0&a=flickr&d=cp_d%3Dwww.flickr.com%26cp_t%3Ds%26cp%3D792600246%26mid%3D39730300063%26ufn%3D39730300063_720p&s=2f9de8515d0227ee8125f575caac437a

    Here's Friday's state of the official crossing line at Haymarket, where you can just make out that the poured rubber 'seal' around the rail has rippled and extruded to create a further hazard to cycle tyres crossing the rails

    https://farm8.staticflickr.com/7902/47139347102_79c19fbf9d_h.jpg

    Chris Oliver's study N=191 plus a further study of Toronto crashes highlights the detail that over 50% of falls happened when the cyclist was distracted by the presence/actions of other road users.

    70% of the falls were caused by the front tyre turning and dropping into the groove, generally throwing the rider over the handlebars to plant their face into the tarmac, or break bones if they put their arms out to break the fall. a few will manage to tuck and roll, or lift the front of the bike up and plant the tyre back on the road. These falls tend to happen when the rider is crossing the rail too slowly and with too 'light' a grip on the handlebars and the forward momentum of the bike does not overcome the forces turning the tyre into the groove.

    The next most common fall is the side slide, which tends to drop you on to your hip or other part on your side when you go down.

    One disturbing detail at Haymarket is that the cycle lane is barely 1 metre wide between the rail and kerb and entirely INSIDE the 'dynamic envelope' required by the tram to get past obstructions.... so don't be in the cycle lane if a tram is coming up behind you.

    Posted 5 years ago #
  12. Arellcat
    Moderator

    technically with GDPR you have up to 30 days to obtain images in which you appear but some systems wipe after 10 days, or less.

    The CCTV's data controller has one calendar month in which to respond to a request for the footage, although the DPA 2018 states initially that it should be "without undue delay". But it is probably a Good Thing to request CCTV images as soon as possible.

    For example:

    Lothian Buses: "The systems in use on board buses work on a looped recording basis capable of storing 1 week or more of data, depending on the equipment in the bus, thus images or events recorded will not be available after the files have been overwritten, unless the images have been recovered by the CCTV Manager prior to being overwritten."

    Edinburgh Trams: "Our trams and premises are fitted with CCTV. Our Ticketing Services Assistants are equipped with personal CCTV. This is done to ensure that evidence of any act of violence and aggression or other inappropriate behaviour or of theft or criminal damage can be passed to the Police and the prosecuting authorities. We will always use all means to secure prosecution of anyone who commits a violent or criminal act on our trams or in our premises."

    and

    "We will only retain your information for the minimal period we deemed duly required, thereafter we will ensure any data is securely deleted from our system. Hard copy evidence received which securely destroyed using a reputable specialist company." (though this is in the context of non-CCTV personal information)

    Scotrail (e.g. for Haymarket): "CCTV footage – this is generally held for a maximum of 31 days from the time of recording, with the following exceptions: (i) if it relates to an accident, we will retain media for 3 years; (ii) if it relates to an operational incident, we will retain media for 5 years. Recordings obtained from body worn cameras are generally held for 24 hours, unless footage from a recording is required to be retained for any of the purposes set out in this privacy statement (such as, for example, the prevention and detection of crime or health and safety purposes) in which case it shall be held for so long as needed for these purposes."

    Questions:

    If a data controller has a privacy policy that says it retains CCTV images for 10 days, and within that time period the images are requested by a competent authority (e.g. Police Scotland), is it a data breach if the data controller does not preserve them?

    If a data controller has a privacy policy that says it retains CCTV images for 10 days, and within that time period the images are requested by the data subject, is it a data breach if the data controller does not preserve them?

    Posted 5 years ago #
  13. gembo
    Member

    @arellcat, unlikely, they have a month to respond, responding with - we wipe the data after ten days sorry - is probably OK as long as they respond within the month.

    Hence the need to get yer skates on

    Posted 5 years ago #
  14. condor2378
    Member

    @Arellcat

    If a data controller has a privacy policy that says it retains CCTV images for 10 days, and within that time period the images are requested by a competent authority (e.g. Police Scotland), is it a data breach if the data controller does not preserve them?

    No. It's only a data breach if the information is used in an unauthorised way (simplified version). It may be considered a Policy Breach, but footage can be unavailable for all sorts of reasons, CCTV HD corrupted, camera not working etc.. not a "Data Breach".

    If a data controller has a privacy policy that says it retains CCTV images for 10 days, and within that time period the images are requested by the data subject, is it a data breach if the data controller does not preserve them?

    No. For same reasons above. Data breaches are only applicable to held information. You can't breach on information you don't hold.

    @Gembo is correct. GDPR states 30 days to respond (or say why it'll take longer), not how long data must be retained. The best way to avoid a data breach is not to have the information in the first place, hence, footage deleted after 10 days is an acceptable answer.

    Source: Am Data Protection Officer.

    Posted 5 years ago #
  15. steveo
    Member

    No. For same reasons above. Data breaches are only applicable to held information.

    We spent a lot time at the digital shredder just before GDPR came in.

    Posted 5 years ago #
  16. wingpig
    Member

    I shall finally get to email Spokes with my own tram-track slide-off. I was taking a different line to avoid an erratic dingbat and slid off on the second rail heading east past South St Andrew St. Fortunately, nowt but mild non-leaky scrapes to elbow, hip and ankle and the driver of the bus behind me was one of the cautious ones who leaves a gap in front of them.

    Posted 4 years ago #
  17. SRD
    Moderator

    when the tram tracks bring down one of edinburgh's most experienced and sensible cyclists...something must be wrong?

    Posted 4 years ago #
  18. gembo
    Member

    Caused it seems by a very bad cyclist??

    Posted 4 years ago #
  19. wingpig
    Member

    Can't blame the dingbat, though it is unusual to have to be wary of a vehicle in front going through that section; it's usually impatient people behind presenting the most risk.

    Posted 4 years ago #
  20. I were right about that saddle
    Member

    Wingpig: Sacrifice at the Altar of Tram.

    They might as well build a first-aid station at Picardy Place. It's going to be carnage.

    Posted 4 years ago #

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