CityCyclingEdinburgh was launched on the 27th of October 2009 as "an experiment".
IT’S TRUE!
CCE is 15years old!
Well done to ALL posters
It soon became useful and entertaining. There are regular posters, people who add useful info occasionally and plenty more who drop by to watch. That's fine. If you want to add news/comments it's easy to register and become a member.
RULES No personal insults. No swearing.
I'm hopeful that as this has been surveyed that speeds will be lower by consent due to the majority being in favour.
I reckon that the road by shop now sees most traffic at below 25 mph. Enforcement argument can be used on all road rules.
Other benefit is the impact speed on potholes will drop so road repairs may cost less. Plus benefit to motorists on wear and tear to vehicles. It's win, win.
BBC report says:
'Supt Phil O'Kane, of Police Scotland, said: "We will not routinely police the 20mph zones, however we will respond to any particular zones where there is a casualty reduction requirement.
"We will enforce the 20mph zones outside schools because that is important for the children of Edinburgh."'
I wonder which casualties do not require reducing?
Do the Police not recognise there are other benefits (as well as casualty prevention) from compliance with limits?
When will they start enforcing the zones as promised and how much will they do it?
Will they use speed cameras if they are more effective and/or cheaper than Police officers or traffic calming at deterring speeding?
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SRD (@SRDorman)
07/01/2015 12:01
disappointing to also see Cluny gardens and Charterhall remaining at 30 @shuggiet @thistlejohn
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Lesley Hinds (@LAHinds)
07/01/2015 17:54
@SRDorman @shuggiet @thistlejohn Lothian Buses have been consulted and we have listened to them
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Obviously no-one paid any attention to Dave (unfortunately) -
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It's been a while since I had a good Edinburgh gurn in the "sociopolitics" section of my blog, and by coincidence I had the opportunity to add a Leith-based bus service to my collection this evening.
Needless to say, no. 7 didn't go much faster than south central's no. 38 (even though it was ~7pm and traffic was very light). I recycled a little content written nearer the time to provide some South-Central backstory:
http://mccraw.co.uk/lothian-buses-20mph-limit/
20mph on Leith Walk a pipe dream's pipe dream, of course...
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That data was definitely presented to the working group on 20mph.
20mph zones ‘will drive out tradesmen’
The Chipwrapper has out-done itself with publishing this utter nonsense. As if a 20mph zone A/ creates more traffic and even more spuriously B/ will mean that the folk of Edinburgh suddenly need less plumbers / electricians / gas fitters / joiners etc.
This is being spun in this manner for a number of paragraphs, despite the article's own admission that the forecast likely average speed reduction through town as a result of the change is 1mph...
Alex Johnstone, transport spokesman for the Scottish Conservatives, said: “Blanket speed limits are a bad idea, because it means drivers don’t know in which areas it is most important to drive slowly. Speed limits must be variable, they have to reflect the conditions and surroundings of the road.”
Mr Johnstone has outdone himself with stupidity with such a quote. Blanket speed limits mean that drivers know exactly in which areas it is most important to drive slowly - all of them!
Handyman Gavin is quoted as saying:
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“These new measures and restrictions might make journeys more difficult for tradesmen,” he said. “Unfortunately, that extra time spent stuck in traffic and searching for a parking spot might end up getting charged to the customer.”
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And then the next three paragraphs (my bold):
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Echoing this view, Tony Kenmuir, head of Central Taxis, said the council’s own research indicated that speed cuts had minimal impact on traffic congestion.
“I thought it was going to increase congestion, waste more fuel and increase journey times,” said Mr Kenmuir, whose input on the plans were invited by transport officials.
“But when presented with the council’s own findings, it turned out that speed reductions actually make almost no impact at all.
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So by "echoing this view" they mean "completely opposing this view".
And the first comment:
I'm a member of the FSB. And Gordon Henderson certainly didn't consult me, or any other members, before spouting this utter tripe in our name!
If he continues to abuse the membership by continuing his ridiculous anti-public right wing political lobbying I for one will be resigning. He has no right to spout this antisocial idiocy as if he's speaking for the organisation's members. Most small businesses care about their community!
The fact is that historically traffic calming ALWAYS ends up being good for business. It may be counter-intuitive so that fact won't suit the 'common sense' thick brigade. But it's factually provable.
Mr Henderson, you are a disgrace to your office. You should resign now.
FB users might like to comment here -
https://m.facebook.com/edinburghcouncil/posts/984366021592913
I admit that this may be gradualist and may not get everyone on board straight away. We are talking about a social attitude change here. Chipwrapper is funded by car ads, BBC falls into trap of saying drivers 'face' a 20 mph limit. Either way it all makes it sound like it's a punishment.
But of course we always seem to have a majority of nae-sayers telling people that things can't, won't change.
One of these was the fact that Scotland has a lower drink limit for drivers.
Apparently it has resulted in less bookings.
19% drop in national drink driver offences
Average speed cameras on A9 don't seem to have increased accident risk - despite the warnings from some quarters. Early days but I'm hopeful that their predictions are wrong.
“Blanket speed limits are a bad idea, because it means drivers don’t know in which areas it is most important to drive slowly."
Gosh, imagine if drivers didn't realise they could go faster on certain roads! And I really wanted my city to be as dangerous as possible, and all roads to be de facto motorways.
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Sustrans Scotland (@SustransScot)
08/01/2015 16:36
#Edinburgh residents can contact their councillors asking them to back plans for a #20mph limit using this handy form
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Taxi boss finds that speed limit reductions make little difference to journey times. Probably because when the 20mph limit on the QBC came in, taxis (and most other vehicles including police cars) continued to do 30!
I have a view that you get places more quickly in cars if you drive more slowly. Advanced drivers do not speed then brake, they anticipate and they go at a constant speed.
As has been mentioned in this thread and previously dave has timed the buses and the 20 limit won't extend journey times
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Under the plans, main carriageways like Queensferry Road, Corstorphine Road and Ferry Road will retain existing speed limits despite experiencing a combined 101 serious accidents in eight years – while other roads with relatively few major collisions will be restricted to 20mph.
The roads where 30mph speed limits will remain have seen twice as many fatalities in the eight years to 2013.
Today, politicians called for transport chiefs to reconsider their plans.
Alex Johnstone MSP, transport spokesman for the Scottish Conservatives, said the traffic study by the Evening News suggested the city’s methodology for selecting 20mph roads was flawed.
This research shows a rethink is clearly needed,” he said.
“It also highlights the problem of reducing speed limits on a blanket basis.
“It would appear not only have the wrong roads been chosen, but increasing the 20mph zones will reduce the importance of driving cautiously in the places where it’s needed most, like accident blackspots or near schools.”
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Research!?!
The EEN picked 10 "main roads" where the limit will remain 30mph and 10 where it will be "slashed" to 20mph and then compared accident statistics for these two groups. This shows you precisely nothing, as they have taken no account of road length, traffic flow, average speeds, numbers of pedestrians and cyclists and so on.
Are the people "challenging" the choice of roads arguing that these major routes should also be 20mph? Of course not - they just hate the idea of 20mph limits.
The article also confuses "accidents" and "casualties". A collision can result in more than one casualty.
Also - there is no such thing as The National Statistics Authority and the UK Department for Transport doesn't "verify" casualty statistics.
The Chipwrapper's war-on-the-war-on-the-motorist's basic thrust seems to be "oh we aren't opposed to 20mph limits, just not these particular 20mph limits".
Its a rather contradictory sort of an article (as one might expect from this paper) in which it seems to suggest the limits should be applied to the "arterial" roads like Queensferry Road and St. Johns Road etc. where there are higher accident rates, but also that it's not a good idea to apply limits to "keep the traffic flowing". Usual sort of Cameron "I ride a bike but we have to keep the traffic flowing" Rose quote.
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The readers survey calls into question the level of public backing for the scheme and suggests the city has more work to do to convince residents of the value of a blanket reduction in speed limits.
Residents living in areas which already have 20mph limits have complained of incidents of “aggressive tailgating” as impatient motorists grow frustrated behind drivers who are respecting the rules.
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Transport convener Councillor Lesley Hinds insisted the planned scheme would be properly policed and enforced.
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I had a go at driving at 20mph in a 30 zone at the weekend. I have to confess that it feels very slow when you're used to 30! I also faffed a bit trying to decide if 2nd or 3rd gear was better. Depends whether the road is going up or down of course. Didn't get any hassle but it was Sunday morning so the roads were quiet. Did the whole of Comiston Road (including the 40 bit) at 30 as well.
Edinburgh would become Scotland’s slowest city
I just love this statement by the chipwrapper.
Yeaah maan, we are like... sooo slooow man. Papa go get yourrr gun. Huk tuk ding <spits cherry stone into bucket>
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With most roads in Edinburgh set to become 20mph and new guidance just published by the Scottish Government, it is clear that lower limits are here to stay.
In most areas they are popular with local people but the final results can be mixed with safety benefits often overstated. Residents like the idea of slow traffic outside their own front door but are not so keen if it holds them back getting further afield.
The Institute of Advanced Motorists is concerned that some councils may see 20mph speed limits as a cheap and quick fix. Consider the choice for cash-strapped local councils – 20mph zones with expensive road humps, or 20mph limits, just requiring signs. It’s no wonder that “sign only” blanket coverage projects are winning out.
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if you're supportive of 20mph, it would be good if you could write to your councillors or to committee.services@edinburgh.gov.uk
there's an 'e-action' here that you could use: http://e-activist.com/ea-action/action?ea.client.id=1719&ea.campaign.id=34253&ea.tracking.id=e-2&ea.url.id=344200
my suspicion is that the 'anti' forces are mobilising and vocal. we'd expected this later, but would be good not to let our guard down now....
Evening News are going to town on this. Here's their comment piece:
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The concerns centre on the number of busy arterial routes included in the council proposals. The 20mph limit is being imposed on a large number of them, for their entire length, without a convincing case being put forward that it will improve road safety.
This blanket approach is ill thought out and potentially dangerous.
The research shows that motorists drive to the conditions around them and where they feel it is safe to do so their default in an urban area is 30mph.
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(My bolds)
Really????????!!!!
Of course it will need Leslie Hinds to be correct when she says that Police Scotland will help enforce limits.
Financial impact
5.1 Costs of the project to date have been met from existing budgets. Details of
implementation costs will be set out in the report to Committee in March 2015.
As far as I can tell it's the transport committee voting rather than the full council. How will contacting my local councillors help if they're not on the committee?
Ask them to speak to their party's rep on the committee
What is a city for?
I would argue that it is a place to live, play, work and do business. To interact at close quarters with all sorts of people. To access arts, culture, shops, services and opportunities that can only be provided where there is a large concentration of people.
Transport is necessary to make this happen - but it still remains an incidental, a service. Over the last 50 years the city fathers have allowed the car to dominate our city. Major roads sever our communities, thronged with traffic at all hours. Children are corralled at home or in designated areas for fear of the car. Our streets have become car parks, denuded of life. Our communities are weaker due to a lack of incidental contact. People die, or are seriously injured, on the city's roads every day.
The 20mph limit is a very small step in helping to tackle some of these problems. Collisions are both less likely and, where they do happen, less serious at 20mph than 30mph. Roads are easier to cross, traffic that little less intimidating to (potential) cyclists and pedestrians. Our city will become that little more human.
Thank you City of Edinburgh Council for being brave enough to pursue this. Please don't back down now.
What do the anti-20mph limit people offer, but false arguments?
No-one has overstated the benefits of the 20mp limit. Lowering the speed limit is not dangerous - especially compared to leaving it unchanged. Business will not be damaged - current average speeds are already less than 20mph and I doubt the well-off citizens of central Edinburgh will require less goods and services than they do now due to a slower speed limit.
All these people offer is more of the same. More traffic. More casualties. More ill health. I wish they would step out of their cars. Take a walk, see what they have helped create and then try and imagine how the city could be improved by less traffic and less speed.
So are councillors being asked to sign a blank cheque? Given Edinbuegh's nack of over engineering, this could cost a few million.
Recent examples of the extension of the 20mph zones would suggest the opposite, it was done entirely with some signs and white paint on the roads, with no new traffic calming, enforcement cameras and no specifically funded police support (or police support at all?!).
I can see it being a cheaply implemented operation and widely ignored / flouted.
I guess the nice thing about these schemes is that only one driver is required to active the new limit and the scheme gives legal backing to drivers who would like to drive more slowly and negates some of the associated guilt of "holding up traffic"
I've been reading the proposals. No new traffic calming as part of this. At the moment there's signs at the entry to every zone, but as the zones will be much larger, not that many more signs will be required.
Glad to report that all 3 of my councillors are supporting the 20mph. They're a good bunch :-)
"Of course it will need Leslie Hinds to be correct when she says that Police Scotland will help enforce limits."
Which she isn't... Certainly on the telly news on this the other night they had Police bod on saying they supported the new limits, but did not have the resource to actively police them, but would obviously respond where (this was heavily implied, but it can't remember the exact words) someone dies or is seriously injured.
Then the usually reliable Edmund King popped up and suggested that one reason not to have the new limits was simply because drivers don't like them. Seriously, that was his main argument against them.
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