It is notable that many of the Councillors who want to keep "arterial roads" and "trunk routes" at 30mph (or above), themselves live on streets with a 20mph speed limit. So 20mph id OK where they live, but not for other people...
CityCyclingEdinburgh Forum » Infrastructure
20mph zones may go Scotland wide after Edinburgh trial
(797 posts)-
Posted 9 years ago #
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I think it's great that it's going ahead but if it isn't enforced (or enforced as poorly as the current 20 zones are) it's not going to make a difference. The number of drivers zooming around the backstreets of Grange/Newington at lunchtime (and every lunchtime I go for a walk) was unreal. Even speed bumps didn't seem to make a difference with many not even braking to go over them.
Posted 9 years ago # -
Not reading EEN comments but am used to arguments about slow speeds for drivers causing frustration. Exactly same argument used on limiting speeds on the A9 - albeit that is enforced.
If the majority are in favour then it will result in slower speeds by sheer weight of numbers. Countless road laws are broken every day (as we all know) and police could never handle all. This is maybe just the start of improving things for everyone as people re-adjust to driving below 30mph. People will be surprised to find that wear and tear on cars and roads is less and journey time virtually the same.
EEN should be praising this initiative.
Posted 9 years ago # -
Strongly agreed. People break the law all the time and get away with it. It's missing the point to argue against 20mph zones because people will break that law and get away with it too.
In the existing southside 20mph zone there are plenty of drivers who go far too fast but think about it this way: without expensive physical calming measures, despite being strangely undermined by the police force, speeds in the southside have significantly dropped. That they haven't dropped below 20mph is a very glass-half-empty way of looking at it.
Similarly, it doesn't really matter if roads are excluded from this scheme just now. The important thing is that it goes ahead - in time, it will be much easier to argue that 40mph on Lanark Road is inappropriate because it's not really all that different from [list of slower roads].
Posted 9 years ago # -
"EEN should be praising this initiative."
Indeed.
It sees its 'job' as being against the council, but it really should 'want' to promote Edinburgh as 'a great place to live' more.
Not just about speed limits, should be more about reducing number of private cars!
Posted 9 years ago # -
Watched a guy I recognise from my commute today at kingsnowe. A very bad two lane road with a 40mph limit. Bad because cars park on the inside lane and force you out into the outside lane. Also has bad pinch points. The chap I know took primary in the outside lane. Never seen that before. Seemed to go down OK. He got stuck at the lights at the bottom but I then took left at chesser, we normally have a word or two of banter. I am only surmising as never seen him in icy conditions before but he maybe thought it safer out in the second lane. I think the twenty limit will be good. Lots of drivers will adhere to the 20mph limit. The same ones that speed in the 30mph will speed in the 20 mph. But some of them will speed at a lower speed if you see what I mean. My favourite cycle in edinburgh is going over braid hills road and that is 50mph. Quite wide but very bad camber. If it was flat it could have a cycle lane for sure. Anyone know why the camber is so huge? Snow related?
Posted 9 years ago # -
Even speed bumps didn't seem to make a difference with many not even braking to go over them.
I've got a theory that speedbump design lags 10 or 15 years behind car design; even "affordable" motors now have much more powerful engines for rapid acceleration and big disc brakes to slow quickly, combined with sophisticated suspension and shock absorption, and generally wider tyres on larger diameter wheels. All this means that they can cruise fairly rapidly and comfortably along the road, slow quickly for the speedbump, ride over it at a faster speed than intended and then be quickly back up to speed on the other side. The net effect is that speedbumps aren't nearly as effective as the designers intended.
Posted 9 years ago # -
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-edinburgh-east-fife-30800987
An example of an "arterial" road that's also residential.
Posted 9 years ago # -
The speedbumps on Hutchison Crossway are mental. They're not very high, but the profile is like a tabletop on a BMX track - you bang up onto them, then it's all smooth for a moment, then you crash down off the far side. I think they should have those signs that warn road users of 'RAMP'.
Posted 9 years ago # -
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Doug Brown Cabbie (@DougBrownCabbie)
13/01/2015 21:46
@CyclingEdin @20splentyforus @Edinburgh_CC @STVEdinburgh @LAHinds You might not notice but many pedestrians don't adhere to traffic signals"
Posted 9 years ago # -
@kaputnik, yes, that story is one that should be linked to. The driver stopped at the scene but police still seeking witnesses. I used to quite often get the lollipop woman to assist with crossing to get to the primary school, she would press the pedestrian crossing button as I approached her beat and then I could dismount and push across with her wielding the big lolly stick. There was a junction a bit further up but often felt the cars going too fast so rarely risked it.
Posted 9 years ago # -
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Edinburgh already has 20mph limits around schools and in many residential areas, where the danger to pedestrians is highest. So what does the extension hope to achieve? A reduction in accidents, certainly. But there would be even fewer if speeds were cut to 10mph, and fewer still if cars were banned from the city centre. Where does one draw the line? And does there come a point where the council realises its job is not to eliminate risk from daily life?
This decision will disadvantage many people who simply want to get from A to B with the minimum of fuss and delay.
"
http://www.scotsman.com/news/leaders-common-sense-declines-with-speed-limits-1-3660256
Gets more bizarre...
At least the Evening News was 'just' pandering to its more rabid readers.
The Scotsman seems to think that saving lives and making Scotland's Capital a nicer, safer place to live is 'political correctness gone mad'.
Edinburgh - enlightened?, progressive? - or just another city were cars and 'unfettered traffic flow' (a myth of course) are more important than mere people - children, visitor or just everyone when they are not actually driving or being driven!
Posted 9 years ago # -
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Spokes CycleCampaign (@SpokesLothian)
14/01/2015 01:02
Congrats @TheScotsman reporter @AlastairDaltonhttp://www.scotsman.com/news/transport/edinburgh-councillors-approve-20mph-plans-1-3659981
but NOT the editor scotsman.com/news/leaders-c… @CyclingEdin @AndrewDBurns
"
Posted 9 years ago # -
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Gavin Corbett (@gavincorbett)
14/01/2015 06:30
.@CyclingEdin compared to this http://www.independent.co.uk/voices/editorials/easy-does-it-edinburgh-makes-stately-progress-at-20mph-9976349.html The Scotsman send determined to peddle sub Daily Mail stuff about "freedom". Sad."
Posted 9 years ago # -
Nicely done Edinburgh
Posted 9 years ago # -
"
Neil Greig, director of policy and research at the Institute of Advanced Motorists, said the claim that 20mph limits would improve road safety has “not been proved beyond all doubt”.
He said: “It’s no surprise that councillors have voted for the 20mph plan but disappointing that they could not have waited until the first phase has had more time to provide totally conclusive results.
"
Posted 9 years ago # -
They must have Neil Greig on speed dial at the Hootmsan and Chipwrapper, they don't seem to be able to publish an article on anything vaguely related to transport or tarmac without including his opinionated tuppenceworth. Given his education background and extensive professional and advisory experience on the subject of road safety and urban planning, you'd think he'd be a little bit more objective on occassion.
He is a member of the Dft Road Safety Advisory Group, Prince Michael of Kent Road Safety Award Panel, Scottish Government Road Safety Operational Group, the Scottish Safety Camera Programme Advisory Board and Chairs the Publicity Committee of Road Safety Scotland.
Perhaps he's only professionally concerned with the safety of the occupants of motor vehicles, not those unfortunate enough to be hit by one?
Posted 9 years ago # -
"
Perhaps he's only professionally concerned with the safety of the occupants of motor vehicles
"
There's probably some truth in that - and it won't be a conscious position.
I've had past dealings with the 'road safety' 'establishment'. Then there seemed to be an acceptance that cars/traffic was a 'reality here to stay' and that walking/cycling was (at best) a distraction.
I knew one person who worked in Tayside and was keen on cycle training in schools. Got a job with L&B Police and quickly absorbed the 'we don't want to do that' culture.
Another person moved from 'education' to a senior position with the Gov's Road Safety arm and had a similar personality change.
Of course that was 10 years ago, I'm sure things are different now...
Posted 9 years ago # -
Quote from Lesley Hinds:
but we want our arterial routes at 30 and 40 so that traffic can flow
I cannot believe she really thinks that a mile or two of 30/40 roads, interspersed by traffic lights every 100yds, will really make any difference to 'traffic flow'
Posted 9 years ago # -
Maybe Neil Greig needs to update his CV?
"He is a member of ... the Scottish Safety Camera Programme Advisory Board ..."
From written answers to Scottish Parliament: "The Scottish Safety Camera Advisory Board (SAB) held its last meeting on 17 June 2008"
"A decision was taken by the Director of the Scottish Safety Camera Programme and the chair of SAB, former Chief Constable of Tayside Police John Vine, that there was no longer a need for the Board."Posted 9 years ago # -
" cannot believe she really thinks that a mile or two of 30/40 roads, interspersed by traffic lights every 100yds, will really make any difference to 'traffic flow' "
It's a standard mindset.
It's disappointing that she feels the need to say it (and that that is the way CEC is devising their 20mph plans.)
Even more disappointing that she is willing to believe it.
It's the same as people believing that traffic would flow better with no traffic lights. Perhaps so if everyone was using the same route and not wanting to use other routes at right angles!
Posted 9 years ago # -
@slowcoach indeed! that's his current IAM website CV I coped and pasted.
Posted 9 years ago # -
If your talking about the movement of traffic between Western Corner and Maybury or from Orchard Brae to Barnton then I suspect the difference between 20mph and the proposed limits would make a substantial difference to the movement of traffic and levels of peak period congestion. I suspect largely because, as chdot puts it, everyone is using the same route and not (much) wanting to use other routes at right angles.
I think the argument for those routes and times would be to ensure that there are safe alternative routes for bikes and pedestrians and, in particular, good provision for people to cross those roads.
Posted 9 years ago # -
"and, in particular, good provision for people to cross those roads"
Yes, but we're back to the same old issue - CEC doesn't allocate enough money for crossings plus the 'not many people cross there' chicken/egg.
Posted 9 years ago # -
http://m.edinburghnews.scotsman.com/news/facebook-group-plans-protest-over-20mph-limit-1-3664398
I really hope that the "go slow" protest results in smoother traffic flow!
Like most Facebook "protests" I reckon it will end up a damp squib. Easy to click a mouse button, but getting people out to actively do something takes a lot more effort (and I'll take the opportunity here to thank all the PoP organisers!)
Posted 9 years ago # -
I couldn't find the Facebook page but I did see the "organiser" Grant MacCusker's Twitter page. His profile picture is of a large footballers' wives style 4x4 with blacked out windows. Ok, jumping to conclusions here, but I suspect Mr MacCusker isn't a supporter of active travel.....
Posted 9 years ago # -
Pls RT if you agree...
Posted 9 years ago # -
Given the fact (which is something the EEN doesnt like reporting) that a consultation did happen, it seems rather amusing that Mr MacCusker is demanding a 'public consultation' !!!
Also hilarious that the supporters of this chap (tories and taxi drivers in the main) are stating that 'only 2500 people responded' - is that not the point of consultations, that those who dont like it make their point ahead of council deliberations?
Posted 9 years ago # -
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Gareth Mackie (@garethmackie)
16/01/2015 10:39
Very sensible piece on @Edinburgh_CC plans for 20mph limits in today's @scotsmanmotors http://pic.twitter.com/Bv17651bZE"
Posted 9 years ago # -
Comment on ENews story
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DROPPED ON TULLY
Well-advertised and long-running public consultation didn't go the way you wanted it to? Never fear! Blame the council, blame cyclists, blame selection bias, blame loaded questions, blame anything you like but above all never accept.
Then start a Facebook campaign.
"
Posted 9 years ago #
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