CityCyclingEdinburgh Forum » Infrastructure

Does pressing the crossing button actually do anything?

(28 posts)
  • Started 11 years ago by kaputnik
  • Latest reply from crowriver

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  1. kaputnik
    Moderator

    The UK uses a traffic system called Scoot (Split Cycle Offset Optimisation Technique) so the same overall principles apply whatever town or city you live in.

    Edinburgh has roughly 300 traffic junctions of which about 50-60 are junctions where the green man comes on automatically. In the jargon this is known as "walk with". It is usually where a one-way street connects with another road. The green man comes on whenever the red traffic light shows. At night this might change but during busy times the system is automated.

    The maximum wait time for a green man in the UK is set at two minutes, says Martin Low, transport commissioner for Westminster City Council.

    That can feel like a long time.

    Low wants councils to help pedestrians to cross even if there is a red man. Instead of constructing barriers, Westminster is putting in "perch" islands in the middle of roads to allow pedestrians to get across.

    And here is where the UK differs from some other countries. The British pedestrian looks to cross whatever the lights, merely checking whether any traffic is approaching. (The law is on the pedestrian's side, except on motorways, certain other roads...)


    There's a number of infuriating junctions I have to pass through which I'm sure the button has no effect and you have a long wait to cross while cars are prioritised through.

    Posted 11 years ago #

  2. TractorFactory
    Member

    Alternatively, there are some that very pedestrian cycle path friendly.

    Where the NEPN crosses the road Tesco is on at Davidson Mains, for example, more or less turns as soon as you press the button.

    Posted 11 years ago #

  3. kaputnik
    Moderator

    It's the Broomhouse Path ones that really get me. Badly located junctions and on two of them very long waits through the entire road cycle before you get to cross.

    Posted 11 years ago #

  4. SRD
    Moderator

    "Where the NEPN crosses the road Tesco is on at Davidson Mains, for example, more or less turns as soon as you press the button."

    Last time I was there we sat and sat. Some local peds, also waiting said it was always like that....

    it did eventually change

    Posted 11 years ago #

  5. fimm
    Member

    But pressing the button to make the little green man turn up makes small children happy, so it is not all bad ;-)

    Posted 11 years ago #

  6. cc
    Member

    I'm glad to say that the Toucan crossing at Argyle Place, Middle Meadow Walk, Melville Drive, Argyle Park Terrace, Fingal Place and South Meadow Walk a few minutes ago started turning to a green bike the moment I pressed the button. Nice to know it does it some of the time at least :)

    Posted 11 years ago #

  7. Uberuce
    Member

    The one that annoys me most on Broomhouse is actually an on-demand, but it's the site of the most blatant and bullying RLJing I've seen.

    In those cases: yes, the button does nothing if drivers not only see the light turn red well in advance, but are willing to make eye contact with the person waiting at the crossing and then pile through regardless.

    Posted 11 years ago #

  8. gembo
    Member

    Some red lights on the actual traffic light do not work for bikes. It is outrageous.. There use to be one in w hailes that must have Been car
    Activated for the filter to turn right I sat at it once and it went through the cycle of red amber green twice without giving me a right turn. What was a boy to do? Anyway when they built the healthy living centre the light went west.

    You do need to press the button then on many ped crossings, some such as bottom of st Mary st come on automatically as part of the light sequence but sometimes I lean over and press the button for dopey Peds to get the green man to come on, when it is non magic lights

    This is also on the bad cycling thread. With link to bbc article with many curious factoids - Orthodox Jews can't press the button on sabbath. The wee German men they fought to keep on the crossings due to their cheeriness etc

    Posted 11 years ago #

  9. Bhachgen
    Member

    Amazing how often, when on foot, you get to a crossing to find a group of peds happily waiting, only to find that none of them have actually pressed the button. I wonder sometimes how long they have been there before my arrival, and how long they would have waited for...

    Posted 11 years ago #

  10. Kenny
    Member

    Last time I was there we sat and sat. Some local peds, also waiting said it was always like that....

    Odd. I can only assume the two of you are talking about different crossings. The one I assume is being mentioned is the one on NCR1 at Barnton Avenue, and it changes the instant you press the button, with the obvious exception being if it was pressed very recently. I've gone over there countless occasions, and have never sat and sat, tbh. Maybe it does different things outside of rush hour?

    However, there are lights I know of where you do wonder what the justification is for the amount of time you wait. At the pedestrian crossing on the Glasgow Road at St Thomas' Church, when you press the button you are guaranteed to have to wait for ages before it'll change, irrespective of whether it was pressed recently. It's unbelievably bad.

    @gembo - I've come across this at a different junction. Going north on Old Dalkeith Road, I wanted to turn right on to The Wisp. I sat through two entire cycles (sic) of light changes, and eventually gave up and pushed my bike across the ped crossing. It clearly just did not see me, and despite it being rush hour, no car came up behind me also wanting to turn right. :(

    But what really annoys me is people who press the button and then don't wait for the green man. If I press the button, I'll wait, irrespective of whether there are cars coming. Justification being a story my father told me when I was a child, which was that he knew of a child that had been hit by a car which had a red light at a ped crossing, saw no-one was there, so kept going. Alas, a child ran out of their house, saw the green man so sprinted on to the crossing. Clearly, the driver was at fault, but his opinion was that if there had been someone waiting to cross, the driver would have seen them and stopped, preventing the child being hit. Again, this isn't excusing the driver's actions, but it was enough for me to learn that if I want to cross without waiting for the green man, I will not press the button. If I press the button, I'll wait. Some child might benefit from those extra few seconds I "lose" waiting. And even if they don't, at least I'm not wasting other people's time having to stop at a red light for no-one's benefit.

    Posted 11 years ago #

  11. gembo
    Member

    @mkns yes we must resist the temptation to press green but then cross before it comes on as can wind up drivers having to stop at ped crossing with no one on it. I agree and must try to eradicate this as Inadmit I am sometimes guilty at the A71 crossing at hermiston. Dual carriageway often cars bombing along then inexplicable gaps which are too tempting. I will resist

    Posted 11 years ago #

  12. neddie
    Member

    I have a better idea:

    The lights normally stay at red for cars in all directions and the green man is showing in all directions. The first car to arrive at the junction winds down their window and presses the button. The cars then wait for up to 2 minutes before the lights go to green.

    The lights then go back to pedestrian phase again first, before allowing any cars that may have arrived at the crossing road to get green.

    Posted 11 years ago #

  13. sallyhinch
    Member

    Wasn't there a village that was sick of some big A road going through it who made their point by continually pressing the button on the crossing and crossing all day long (I assume they had some sort of shift system) and causing enormous tailbacks.

    Given that most of our crossings are two-parters and it takes about five minutes to complete the circuit, if I see a gap I go for it whether I've pressed the button or not. It's the only little bit of power we pedestrians have left (that and messing with the minds of drivers on zebra crossings) I'm not going to give it up

    Posted 11 years ago #

  14. crowriver
    Member

    @eddie_h, I like your proposal!

    @sallyhinch, I agree, I do that too on a point of principle.

    Posted 11 years ago #

  15. Min
    Member

    Eddie H for First Minister!

    I don't agree with automatic button pressing whether there is someone coming or not because it just means if there is not, the person just crosses straight away and then the lights go red and motorists/cyclists have to wait for no reason. But since you could be waiting for a stupid amount of time, if the light does not change and there is a gap, I will just cross.

    I do try to wait if there is a person training a small child, though half the time if I wait, they just drag the kid across the road with the red man leaving me standing there like an idiot.

    Posted 11 years ago #

  16. fimm
    Member

    We're pretty sure that the pedestrian crossing along from the Robertson Avenue junction on Slateford Road is synced with the lights at the junction itself (although it isn't very close to the junction). It only gives a green man when the lights for traffic coming from that junction along Slateford Road have gone red. This means you can wait ages for a green man (though once he does show up, you get the longest green man phase ever...)

    Posted 11 years ago #

  17. wingpig
    Member

    "I do try to wait if there is a person training a small child..."

    +1, even when it means it can take five minutes to get all the way across multipart junctions like Montgomery St/Leith Walk.

    Posted 11 years ago #

  18. steveo
    Member

    We're pretty sure that the pedestrian crossing along from the Robertson Avenue junction on Slateford Road is synced with the lights at the junction itself

    It definitely is, I'm there used to be a proper pedestrian crossing there (many moons ago) but it was replaced probably for traffic flow reasons.

    Posted 11 years ago #

  19. crowriver
    Member

    Legally pedestrians can cross anywhere they like, so long as it is safe to cross. Unlike in some other countries, there is no jaywalking offence or similar. So there is really no obligation to wait for a green man. Of course it is good manners to wait, and if I'm with my children (or there are youngsters nearby) I will wait. Otherwise, if the road is clear, I'll cross regardless of having pushed the button. If I don't use the green man someone else might.

    Posted 11 years ago #

  20. sallyhinch
    Member

    yes plus one on training the child, although I will mutter something about how ridiculously long we have to wait and what a disgrace it is - can't have children growing up thinking that waiting for cars is the normal way of things and pedestrians should know their place

    Posted 11 years ago #

  21. SRD
    Moderator

    I was ruminating on this on the way in - surely the reason that pedestrians are so meek is that we are all taught road safety as if we were children?

    so we are trained not to walk on a red man, even though at a toucan crossing we are allowed to cross. we are taught not to step out at junctions, even though rule 170 says we can,.etc etc

    no one ever tells kids that 'red man' is advisory or that they have the right to be on the carriageway, because we don't want them running out. but this leads to things that are legal and safe for adults to do being frowned upon.

    Posted 11 years ago #

  22. sallyhinch
    Member

    And that is why zebra crossings are so bloody brilliant and should be on every street corner. Unfortunately an excess of caution means there are none at all in Dumfries

    Posted 11 years ago #

  23. Min
    Member

    Young children are not renowned for their fantastic ability to judge the speed and distance of things. Therefore better for them to wait for the green man.

    People are only 'meek' to drivers because we all bow down to the great god Car. Cf the difference between driving (peds wait until you are past before crossing) and cycling ( peds just walk out in front of you).

    IMHO Walking out in front of people is rude, I don't do it to other peds while walking either.

    Posted 11 years ago #

  24. SRD
    Moderator

    Min - not suggesting we should tell kids to run out into traffic

    but that we've been infantifilised.

    we mainly do 'road safety' as pre-school kids, maybe some as primary school, so the messages are all aimed at kids.

    Posted 11 years ago #

  25. steveo
    Member

    There was a thread in the past tenuously linking the class system with driving. The rich had horses and buggies whilst the poor walked and were expected to keep out the way of their betters, the assertion was this mind set had carried through to the current car culture. Compared with some continental countries where peds just wander over the road and it is frowned upon to hit them.

    Posted 11 years ago #

  26. Coxy
    Member

    I was watching this earlier (use to live in Norwich):
    http://www.eafa.org.uk/catalogue/908

    It's a POV car trip through a city in the 50s. The speeds are pretty low, peds wander the streets, bikes abound. Have a look and see what you think. It looks like bliss!

    Posted 11 years ago #

  27. Min
    Member

    Looks as if Norwich desperately needed a pavement widening scheme..

    Posted 11 years ago #

  28. crowriver
    Member

    There was a thread in the past tenuously linking the class system with driving. The rich had horses and buggies whilst the poor walked and were expected to keep out the way of their betters, the assertion was this mind set had carried through to the current car culture.

    Which is indeed the case. Until some time in the 1960s only the wealthy could afford private motor vehicles. Think Mr Toad charging around the countryside n his new toy...

    I think the undue deference to motor vehicles (with internalised, surly resentment) is not unique to these islands, but I've only seen similar awe/fear of cars in the transition economies of southern and eastern Europe. Much of northern and western Europe instead seems to give pedestrians priority on urban streets and roads.

    Posted 11 years ago #

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