CityCyclingEdinburgh Forum » General Edinburgh

"duff scheme with poor pedestrian and cycle provision" South Queensferry

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  1. chdot
    Admin

    "
    Architecture SQ (@ArchitectureSQ)
    16/09/2013 13:08
    @SpokesLothian This is a duff scheme with poor pedestrian and cycle provision, and Route 1 is downgraded by it

    https://citydev-portal.edinburgh.gov.uk/idoxpa-web/applicationDetails.do?activeTab=summary&keyVal=MRTM7GEW05000

    "

    Posted 4 years ago #
  2. kaputnik
    Moderator

    Comments now closed, however...

    The plans for this housing estate appear to want to build over the existing path that connects Scotstoun Avenue with the closed road that is a continuation of Dalmeny Main Street, across the railway.

    There is a new path on the plans on a similar alignment that runs into the centre of the estate and then just stops.

    Posted 4 years ago #
  3. bax
    Member

    This planning application represents a vital shot in the arm for the hard pressed construction industry.

    That path was crap anyway. Stopped using it years ago.

    Scotstoun Avenue is the worst through route -- bad overtaking, pinch points, and junction conflict.

    If you're going via Dalmeny, then Station Road is far more traffic managed and predictable.

    Posted 4 years ago #
  4. chdot
    Admin

    "

    Alison Chisholm (@isonisholm)
    17/09/2013 10:19
    @ArchitectureSQ @CyclingEdin @SpokesLothian reading the design & access statement it sounds like exemplar in improved community connectivity

    "
    "
    Architecture SQ (@ArchitectureSQ)
    17/09/2013 11:37
    @isonisholm @CyclingEdin @SpokesLothian great intentions for Planning in Principal, binned in actual designs. Designs don't reflect text!

    "

    Posted 4 years ago #
  5. DaveC
    Member

    The map doesn't show any encroachment onto the tree lined avenue or path between the existing path. I expect no changes to the path or route other than more traffic on that route, heading in the opp direction at commuter times.

    Posted 4 years ago #
  6. panyagua
    Member

    Scotstoun Avenue is the worst through route -- bad overtaking, pinch points, and junction conflict.

    If you're going via Dalmeny, then Station Road is far more traffic managed and predictable.

    I supposed we're creatures of habit to an extent, but since Agilent closed I've found Scotstoun Avenue to be one of the more pleasant stretches of my commute: quiet, wide, level and smooth. On the few occasions I've tried using Station Road, I've hated it, for exactly the same reasons you avoid Scotstoun Avenue. It also involves significant descent/reascent to/from the FRB.

    The current path linking Dalmeny to Scotstoun Avenue is not perfect but it's generally fine. As it appears to be doomed, we'll be forced to detour via a new estate, and probably elsewhere while it's being built - Station Road maybe?

    I wish we could be confident that a new development would result in better cycle infrastructure, but of course that would cost the "hard-pressed construction industry" more money. That site is ideally placed for cycling to the city centre, and the new development has the potential to tempt existing or new cycle commuters to buy houses there, if well designed. But as usual, we're getting the same tired old rubbish being thrown up, on the assumption that we all want to live in bland homogenous boxes and spend our lives sitting in our Audis on bypasses and queuing for petrol at Tesco.

    However, looking at the positive... I do notice there are some cycle stores in the scheme, and the proposed cycle path does appear to link to Scotstoun Ave via a short stretch of road, so maybe there's hope...

    Posted 4 years ago #
  7. kaputnik
    Moderator

    The map doesn't show any encroachment onto the tree lined avenue or path between the existing path

    Reading through the guff;

    "The cycleway on the western boundary of the
    site is rightly re-routed through the new neighbourhood.
    The connection at the north west corner of the site has been
    removed, with agreement from CEC planning, due to level
    issues and current local authority guidance regarding ‘access for all’."

    Which was my above point. It runs into the centre of the new development and stops dead. Then it's time to bail out and find your own way on the roads. The "spine" referred to in multiple places in the documents does not offer a contiguous through route.

    Posted 4 years ago #
  8. panyagua
    Member

    DaveC - just seen your post. If that's correct, then as you say the only result will be more (probably *lots* more) traffic on Scotstoun Ave. I would have been surprised if they were building on the existing path - it's an important bit of green space for the existing residents and their dogs, so can't imagine its demise would have been very popular locally.

    Posted 4 years ago #
  9. crowriver
    Member

    @kappers, the new cycleway as they are calling it appears to connect to a roundabout/turning circle which then connects to Scotstoun Avenue.

    Presumably if one is travelling to South Queenferry itself rather than FRB, then one can either:

    - turn off at Dalmeny onto the railway path to South Queensferry
    - use Station Road instead

    It's possible the new development may enhance connectivity compared to what is there just now, which is convoluted and a bit rubbish.

    The loss of school playing fields seems a bit of a contentious issue!

    Posted 4 years ago #
  10. Baldcyclist
    Member

    Does look from the map that the cycle provision will be unafected. Scotstoun Ave may be quiet, but drivers coming out of the side streets tend not to look because of that, that is where I got hit by one such motorist a year and a half ago.

    As with most modern estates, cycle/pedestrian provision will be non existent.

    Posted 4 years ago #
  11. panyagua
    Member

    that is where I got hit by one such motorist a year and a half ago.

    Hope you were OK. Never had an issue myself, but hearing that... I'll be watching out from now on. I do always eyeball anyone I see approaching from the side, just in case.

    If there's one benefit of the new scheme - Scotstoun Ave will be busier, so drivers won't be so keen to take chances when pulling out of side streets.

    Posted 4 years ago #
  12. bax
    Member

    Scotstoun Ave will be busier, so drivers won't be so keen to take chances

    I admire your boundless optimism

    Mostly I'm a B800 / Standingstane Road man

    But Dalmeny / Station Road on the way back, sometimes

    Posted 4 years ago #
  13. panyagua
    Member

    I admire your boundless optimism.

    Clutching at straws, I admit. I'm not really looking forward to that whole area being busier with what amounts to an entire 'village' (I use the term loosely) being built.

    Might try B800/Standingstane Rd for a change... any tips?

    Posted 4 years ago #
  14. bax
    Member

    Once you're on the Kirkliston Road, there's couple of blind bends that you need to be alert and protect your position on, but other than that, its plain sailing.

    Try it on the way in to town, as it can be a different proposition on the way back.

    Posted 4 years ago #
  15. panyagua
    Member

    Thanks - I'll give it a go later in the week.

    Posted 4 years ago #
  16. kaputnik
    Moderator

    I admit. I'm not really looking forward to that whole area being busier with what amounts to an entire 'village' (I use the term loosely) being built.

    "Banlieu" might be more appropriate

    Posted 4 years ago #
  17. chdot
    Admin

    Bumping this, partly because of forthcoming work on A90.

    Not an area I know, but seems to be used by people who also use A90 and Dalmeny routes.

    Any news/developments?

    Posted 3 years ago #
  18. DaveC
    Member

    No signs apparent. The sign over the old Agilent sign still says for sale.

    Posted 3 years ago #
  19. chdot
    Admin

    Work begun

    Posted 3 years ago #
  20. crowriver
    Member

    the assumption that we all want to live in bland homogenous boxes and spend our lives sitting in our Audis on bypasses and queuing for petrol at Tesco.

    In fairness, quite a large number of folk seem to do exactly that. Whether they truly "want" to do so is a complex issue to examine in detail. Suffice to say our society seems adept at producing such "wants" in surprisingly large quantities!

    Posted 3 years ago #
  21. DaveC
    Member

    Work begun and has been for about a month now. They are encroaching on the path but they have extended the path and I hope there won't be too much disruption before they finish.

    Posted 3 years ago #
  22. acsimpson
    Member

    I noticed on Tuesday that the Dalmeny Park development has made some changes to the new spine path through the site while I've been holidaying.

    They have started work on the second path (near the railway bridge) which will have stepped access to the site. Presumably this is to encourage cyclists to use the central path, although I suspect will do more to inconvenience any pedestrians with wheels.

    The main path which will form part of NCN 1 however now looks like the picture below. As far as I can tell there is no mention of a chicane on the planning application so assume the developers have decided to add one themselves. IIRC new chicanes should be 3m apart but these appear to be closer than that. If this is correct does anyone have a link to the specification which the developers could be pointed to?

    Posted 1 year ago #
  23. Arellcat
    Moderator

    I can't find any chicanes marked on the drawings either. Planning application 13/03310/AMC has a number of non-material variations, and correspondence about the relocation, to the east, of the cycle route.

    This chicane would certainly be injurious to the routes of many Edinburgh-bound SQ/FRB cycle commuters.

    Posted 1 year ago #
  24. Morningsider
    Member

    Here's a link to Cycling by Design, which sets out the specification for chicane design in section 6.5.2:

    http://www.transport.gov.scot/report/j185500-06.htm#design2

    Just scroll right down to the bottom of the page to see it. Unfortunately, the 3m separation distance is a "desirable" minimum and not mandatory.

    Posted 1 year ago #
  25. SRD
    Moderator

    In general, the council's taken that 3m pretty seriously, unless there's reason not to. Recommend you raise it immediately with the cycling@edinburgh.gov.uk account. Let me know if you don't want to and I will.

    Posted 1 year ago #
  26. acsimpson
    Member

    Thanks Morningsider, reading that they are failing in so many ways. eg, no proven need for access controls, if there was bollards would be preferred and the chicane they have gone for is substandard.

    I read the guidance after passing it tonight so can't make a proper estimate but guess it may also be within 5m of the junction.

    SRD, I've emailed them and you should have a copy.

    Whatever they build will be an improvement on the previous gate bypass but that's not an excuse to ignore guidelines.

    Posted 1 year ago #
  27. BurntOut
    Member

    Thank you, acsimpson. That new barrier looks pointless and annoying.

    Posted 1 year ago #
  28. acsimpson
    Member

    Yes I'd agree with it's pointlessness, especially as it will likely just create a desire line in the surrounding dirt. I can't see that argument holding sway with the developers though so my push is to ensure it is at least minimally obstructive.

    I've had a good dialogue with Cala today. They PM I spoke to knew exactly which barrier I was talking about and knew it was currently only a temporary structure. He will catch up with the technical design team on Monday and see what their take on it is before getting back to me.

    Barratt meanwhile don't seem to be interested in talking to anyone who isn't in the process of buying a house from them.

    Posted 1 year ago #
  29. gibbo
    Member

    @panyagua

    "I've found Scotstoun Avenue to be one of the more pleasant stretches of my commute: quiet, wide, level and smooth. On the few occasions I've tried using Station Road, I've hated it"

    Ditto.

    Last time I rode Station Road, I found the surface incredibly poor - even by Edinburgh standards.

    Posted 1 year ago #
  30. bax
    Member

    Station Rd for the win

    Took me six years to make that switch

    Scotstoun Ave's fast pinchpoints had me chasing motons up into cul de sacs for retribution

    Methods were unsound

    Posted 1 year ago #

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