"I've seen a few (very few) ASLs with feeder lanes also in the middle"
And where they do exist they are almost invisible in 'real' traffic.
CityCyclingEdinburgh Forum » Cycling News
Cyclist fights fixed penalty for oing over ASL line
(68 posts)-
Posted 11 years ago #
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The thing is, the police won't enforce them, because they consider the penalties (the same as for running a red light, i.e. 3 points and £60) to be excessive.
Posted 11 years ago # -
I'm still confused about the ASL at Gilmour Place.
I noticed last night that it doesn't actually have a left-hand-side cycle entry lane. The ASL goes all the way to the kerb.
Presumably there are others like this, which I'm now looking out for.
Posted 11 years ago # -
@snowy, yes, there are lots of ASLs that it is illegal to cycle into if the light is at red.
Posted 11 years ago # -
3 points and £60
Are you sure about the 3 points? I was unaware of that.
While it's £60, I suspect it reduces to £30 if paid within 14 days? I mention this as vague justification to myself if I were a copper, handing out a fine.
Either way, if the police are allowed to decide which laws to enforce, that's pretty depressing.
[ edit ]
Aye, 3 points does seem to be mentioned on web sites about it. Even more reason for there to be advertising to inform drivers of the risks they are running!
Posted 11 years ago # -
I wouldn't have done that!
Posted 11 years ago # -
I noticed this morning that the ASL box at the foot of Craiglockhart Avenue has no feeder lane either. I was extremely law abiding and stopped at the first solid white line. I ought to do that more often if for no other reason than it contributes an extra few inches to my potential energy for the next stretch of road.
Posted 11 years ago # -
Conversely I noticed most heading between Cameron Toll and Niddrie actually have the centre feeder where there are two lanes.
Posted 11 years ago # -
Looks like you are supposed to enter it from the pavement..
And hurray for the cyclist who wouldn't take ignorance from a polis.
Posted 11 years ago # -
I am pretty confused by how I'm supposed to behave at an ASL now. I don't understand the point of it if there's a solid white line, and cyclists aren't allowed beyond that line at red - how does distinguish a cyclist from a car? I'm probably being thick, but in the absence of dashed white line entry points, does this just render them useless. If so what is the point of the triangle in the right hand lane at this junction?
Posted 11 years ago # -
"I'm probably being thick, but in the absence of dashed white line entry points, does this just render them useless"
Not being thick at all. Technically, legally, yes, it renders them useless.
The one in the pic is likely supposed to be a central entry, but has been given a solid line. When new ASLs were painted outside the Scottish Widows building on Dalkeith Road the little entry lanes were also solid lines. Our fate is in the hands of numpties.
Posted 11 years ago # -
ah, numpties again - thanks for clearing that up :-)
Posted 11 years ago # -
assume they were meant to be painted with dashed lines, but contractors either couldn't be bothered or were given incorrect drawings.
Just head out with some black paint and add a single dash to make all ASL entry legal?
Posted 11 years ago # -
Here is a ASL feeder (east end of Lady Rd).
https://maps.google.co.uk/?ll=55.926693,-3.166367&spn=0.000313,0.000431&t=h&z=21
Interestingly there isn't one on the left.
I'd agree that ASLs are kind of failed infrastructure. They aren't enforced - you often see police cars using them. And nobody who doesn't cycle sees the point in them or understands the vulnerability of cyclists at junctions and elsewhere.
Posted 11 years ago # -
Thanks for that pic - enlightening. It shows quite well the point made about the King's Theatre ASL - if I were turning right and first in the queue I'd see it as positively dangerous not to be in the right lane to turn right, and hence entering the ASL supposedly illegally. If you did as you were supposed to and entered from the filter lane and then swung right and the lights changed as you could well end up in a mess....
Posted 11 years ago # -
Don't know if this has ever been on CCE -
http://www.ctc.org.uk/file/public/asls_0.pdf
(Haven't read).
Posted 11 years ago # -
On Gilmerton Road near Morrisons, I think that an ASL would be warranted. This going northbound at the traffic lights for Morrisons - see https://maps.google.co.uk/maps?q=gilmerton+road&ll=55.910613,-3.140877&spn=0.000313,0.000431&hnear=Gilmerton+Rd&gl=uk&t=h&z=21
The reason is that there is a cycle lane going right up to the lights. When the lights are red, this frequently leads to a cyclist in the cycle lane next to a vehicle, with the vehicle turning left. This is potentially dangerous (I might try to adopt a primary position at such a junction). I have pointed this out in the past to the council but they said it wasn't priority.
So this is a case of a feeder lane without an ASL.
Posted 11 years ago # -
An example in edinburgh without feeder:
Queensferry Road ASLPosted 11 years ago # -
Brand new ASL was painted on Broomhouse Drive eastbound at junction with Saughton Road a month ago with no filter, just solid white line all the way across.
Posted 11 years ago # -
@chdot - I prefer Magnatom's approach.
To summarise the rules:
1) In most cases don't use the ASL - it will put you in danger.
2) If in doubt see rule 1.To my mind they are "faux amis", and I find it interesting that the promised land appears to have only toyed with them a bit, and may be phasing them out.
Robert
Posted 11 years ago # -
From the Road Traffic Act:
Where the road markings (in reference to advanced stop lines) has been placed in conjunction with light signals, the "stop line" in relation to those light signals means -
(a) the first stop line, in the case of a vehicle (other than a pedal cycle proceeding in the cycle lane) which has not proceeded beyond that line; or
(b) the second stop line, in the case of a vehicle which has proceeded beyond the first stop line or of a pedal cycle proceeding in the cycle lane.The RTA 1988 section 36 basically says that if we put a sign in, then you have to obey it. However, paragraph (2) states:
"
A traffic sign shall not be treated for the purposes of this section as having been lawfully placed unless either—
(a)the indication given by the sign is an indication of a statutory prohibition, restriction or requirement, or
(b)it is expressly provided by or under any provision of the Traffic Acts that this section shall apply to the sign or to signs of a type of which the sign is one;and, where the indication mentioned in paragraph (a) of this subsection is of the general nature only of the prohibition, restriction or requirement to which the sign relates, a person shall not be convicted of failure to comply with the indication unless he has failed to comply with the prohibition, restriction or requirement to which the sign relates.
"Dave's text comes from the Traffic Signs Regulations and General Directions 2002, section 43. The explanatory notes relating to stop lines (diagram 1002.1) are contained in the Traffic Signs Manual, chapter 5. For cycles the diagram is 1001.2 on page 101.
Paragraph 16.21 on page 100 states:
"An advisory or mandatory cycle lane, preferably 1.5m wide, must be provided to enable cyclists to enter the reservoir lawfully, i.e. without crossing the first stop line."
Note the word "must". CEC, are you listening?
So, if a cycle ASL is provided, but without an accompanying cycle lane, the installation violates the requirements and one would argue that the entire sign is thus void. However, the motor vehicle stop line is still valid and to cross it would be an offence. A cyclist crossing that stop line to stop at the second line could not be considered doing so legally because while he is still complying with the requirement of the sign in spirit, the sign itself does not exist, so the cyclist becomes guilty of an offence whether or not the manoeuvre was made in the area of an approach lane.
Posted 11 years ago # -
Right, the ASLs I passed between the Meadows and Niddrie...
Feeder on the left given there's a cycle lane there, but nothing for cyclists wanting to turn in the right hand lane (and there are two lanes here).
Edinburgh ASLs by blackpuddinonnabike, on FlickrAgain, feeder on the left is because there's a cycle lane there, but nothing for anyone wanting to turn right. Oh, and always cars stopped in this one.
Edinburgh ASLs by blackpuddinonnabike, on FlickrAaaaaand again.
Edinburgh ASLs by blackpuddinonnabike, on FlickrOkay, now the feeder is a solid line!
Edinburgh ASLs by blackpuddinonnabike, on FlickrFeeder is sorted, but still no feeder for those wanting to turn right.
Edinburgh ASLs by blackpuddinonnabike, on FlickrAs above.
Edinburgh ASLs by blackpuddinonnabike, on FlickrBut by the bottom of the hill... No feeder at all.
Edinburgh ASLs by blackpuddinonnabike, on FlickrAll of the ASLs around Cameron Toll also have no feeders and just solid lines.
Edinburgh ASLs by blackpuddinonnabike, on Flickr
Edinburgh ASLs by blackpuddinonnabike, on FlickrBut get to Niddrie and suddenly there are feeders on the left AND middle for going right and straight on. Though the side roads have solid lines and no feeders, so on one crossroads you get perfect examples right next to perfectly useless examples...
Edinburgh ASLs by blackpuddinonnabike, on FlickrPosted 11 years ago # -
Great set of pics, WC. Shows what happens when a local authority gets rid of all its Clerks of Works.
Posted 11 years ago # -
You'd have to be mad to follow the rules to the letter. As far as I'm concerned, if the lines aren't painted correctly, all bets are off! Do as you please, or what 'feels right'
Posted 11 years ago # -
I skelped myself upside the head for forgetting this despite the fact Magnatom was in my flat on Saturday and the conversation did drift onto ASZ's, but at the foot of my road is the worst one I've encountered.
It is different very late at night, but apart from that the light sequence is split: ahead only <-> right only, so you can never filter into the right-turning half of the ASZ unless the lane to your left is moving. It's not a wide two lanes and it's heavily used by HGVs and buses.
Posted 11 years ago # -
Way back up thread at the Geordie taking on the polis
1. Never interrupt a polis with Firstly
2. Let a polis say what a polis views your infringement to be
3. A polis will then leave a space for you to say Yes Officer I see your point however I also feel I may have a point to add if I may.....Very surprised the Geordie was not huckled, however, he was filming it all...
Posted 11 years ago # -
It sounds from the above that an ASL entry is legal for a bike because you don't actually ride over a white line even if you go past one to the side.
If you're heading down Whitehouse Loan southbound, at crossroads with Strathearn Place you'll find that a trench has been dug through the centre of the ASL parallel with your line of travel. When the trench was reinstated they didn't repaint the stop lines or the ASL.
Does this mean that, by following that strip of black tarmac you can avoid crossing any white lines and so don't have to stop for the red lights?
Even if you could, would it be a good idea?
Posted 11 years ago # -
The nice new shiny ASLs on the nice new shiny tarmac up at the Balerno junction have no feeder lanes at all. I will continue my usual practice with them, i.e. use them if I get there first and not bother if I don't.
Does anyone know why the law has the bit about "proceeding in the cycle lane" in? Why doesn't it just say what everyone does, i.e. a cyclist my enter the box when the light is red but a motor vehicle may not?
Posted 11 years ago #
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