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Leith Walk Project

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  1. i
    Member

    I've made a redesign while keeping bus lanes. I'm going to do one without the bus lane.

    Original
    Redesign
    Tram compatible (same but with tram lines visible)

    I tried two different types of junction; uncrossed lines and simultaneous green.

    The junction at Iona st seems a bit awkward. There should be a counter-one way route for bicycles, I tried a simple, two way across side street and two way merge path solutions. I'm not sure which would be best.

    Here an honest comparison of pavement space.

    Please let me know what you think, is it worth fighting for?

    Posted 8 years ago #

  2. crowriver
    Member

    Having temporarily moved due to flat renovations, I now live a bit further north and walk up Leith Walk to get to work via Waverley.

    I always knew London Road roundabout was dreadful. Now that I am using it as a pedestrian regularly I can say that, coming from Leith Walk on the eastern approach, it is an absolute disgrace. So completely inconvenient and dangerous for pedestrians.

    What were they thinking when they "designed" this crossing point? Maybe something like "must ensure motor vehicles get round as fast as possible. To hell with pedestrians".

    The removal of this affront to those who walk in the city cannot come soon enough!

    Posted 8 years ago #

  3. kaputnik
    Moderator

    @Crowriver

    it really is dreadful, isn't it?

    Particularly as once you navigate the terrible, 2-stage "temporary" (been like that for 4 years now) crossing, you then have to cross another 2 stages (without lights) where Blenheim Place goes up towards Royal Terrace, with cars turning right off of London Road with complete disregard for anyone trying to (or already) crossing. You have to be able to look both directions at once to safely cross here.

    Also, why is the crossing so far round the corner? Of course, to "keep the traffic flowing smoothly".

    Posted 8 years ago #

  4. PS
    Member

    All hail "traffic flow" and the ability of drivers to put their vehicles through that junction at 20mph+.

    [See also the roundabout at the bottom of Broughton Street - cars can fly through that at a ridiculous speed and peds have to make 50-100m diversions, corralled by railings, just to cross the road.]

    Posted 8 years ago #

  5. neddie
    Member

    It's disgusting the way they treat pedestrians in this city

    Posted 8 years ago #

  6. chdot
    Admin

    "

    In addition, Edinburgh City Council has spent £9.1m to put Leith Walk right after years of damaging tram works that drove businesses to the brink – and several of them right over the edge. Council leaders promised that the work would be “tram-proofed”, but that hasn’t happened, and much of what has already been completed will need to be torn up.

    "

    http://www.edinburghnews.scotsman.com/news/transport/trams-extension-talk-intensifies-is-leith-next-1-3788974

    Posted 8 years ago #

  7. chdot
    Admin

    "
    Dear Stakeholder,

    Leith Programme Stakeholder Update 73

    Phase 3 – Foot of the Walk Junction.

    In Update 72, we advised that works at the Foot of the Walk were to be completed in the week beginning 1 June.

    We can confirm that the contractors anticipate that the main works will be completed by the end of today, Wednesday 3rd June.
    Final elements including testing of the traffic lights etc complete by Friday 5th June (including the commissioning of the new traffic signals equipment). We would like to thank local residents and businesses and all visitors to the area for your patience during the works.

    Here is a little more detail on the completion of all elements of the junction works:

    Paving Works
    The main footway resurfacing on Leith Walk, Duke Street, Great Junction Street is complete. Some minor remedial works are being carried out this week
    The paving work in front of Kirkgate shopping centre is complete.

    Carriageway Resurfacing
    Carriageway resurfacing on Duke Street is complete.
    The main junction area and the areas that tie in Great Junction Street and Constitution Street are being completed today, Wednesday 3 June.
    Anti-skid surfacing and the installation of new road markings on Leith Walk and Duke Street is complete.
    Anti-skid surfacing and new road markings on Constitution Street and Great Junction Street will be complete tomorrow, Thursday 4 June.

    Traffic signals equipment
    The new traffic signals equipment is due to be tested and commissioned over the next couple of days. Subject to testing, the junction should be fully open at some point in the day on Friday 5 June.

    Phase 4 - Pilrig Street to McDonald Road

    We are holding an informal drop-in session from 4.00pm to 8.00pm on Thursday 11 June in the Nelson Hall in McDonald Road library.
    This is an opportunity to view large, printed out copies of the draft proposals for this section that are under development. Officers will also be available to discuss the proposals and answer any questions. Anyone is welcome to drop in at any point during the session.

    We hope to see some of you at the drop-in session.

    Regards

    "

    Posted 8 years ago #

  8. chdot
    Admin

    "

    Dear Stakeholder

    Leith Programme Phase 3 – Foot of the Walk Junction. Update 74.

    I wrote to you on Wednesday to say that, subject to testing of lights, the junction’s new traffic lights would be fully operational at some point today. However, we are not satisfied with a power supply issue that has been identified during testing and therefore we will not ‘commission’ the traffic lights until this is satisfactorily resolved. You may see engineers working throughout this evening and during the weekend to rectify the issue.

    As an interim solution, so that the junction is operating fully as planned, engineers have now set up temporary lights at the Foot of the Walk junction.

    I hope to update you further on Monday.

    Regards

    "

    Posted 8 years ago #

  9. Klaxon
    Member

    A reminder about the public exhibition on Thursday at Mcdonald Rd Library, 4 til 8

    Posted 8 years ago #

  10. i
    Member

    I'll try and visit if I can. I've finally made a bus lane free version of this consultation section; it does mean private car traffic will have to be substantially reduced so buses and potential trams have decent progress through the street.

    Animated for your comparison needs.

    I welcome any comments about it. I think most importantly the bus stop to the north east needs rethinking; a bus stop bypass is needed. It does mean newly laid surfaces need reconstruction unfortunately.

    I've also shut off two side streets to motor traffic and removed the central reservation; more room for walking and human powered transport!

    Posted 8 years ago #

  11. threefromleith
    Member

    Foot of Leith Walk is now complete and open. However, the left-hand turn into Great Junction Street is a massive pinch-point and buses are having to be very careful to make it round without either driving across the pavement on the inside or clipping the traffic island on the outside. It also means that unless cyclists take a strong primary, there's a good chance that an impatient car driver is going take someone out as they're unlikely to expect such a tight squeeze until they're in it.

    My other "What the..?" moment was on realising where the new bus stop is - by the Central Bar. With cars taking up most of the space in the bus stop bay, a 2nd bus was unable to get in behind the first without it's back end sticking out - thus blocking all the traffic coming round from Duke Street, Constitution St and Great Junction St.

    So, instead of making things safer, I reckon they've just increased the danger and the avoidable congestion at a stroke. Genius.

    Posted 8 years ago #

  12. chdot
    Admin

    "

    Dear Stakeholder

    Leith Programme Stakeholder Update 75

    Foot of the Walk Junction – new traffic signals fully operational.

    This is a very quick email update to inform you that the Foot of the Walk junction issues that were reported to you on Friday afternoon were resolved yesterday (Monday). After testing, the junction was ‘commissioned’ in the middle of the afternoon and is now operating under the new traffic signals.

    Phase 4 - Pilrig Street to McDonald Road

    Also, a quick reminder that we are holding an informal drop-in session from 4.00pm to 8.00pm this Thursday, 11 June in the Nelson Hall in McDonald Road library.
    This is an opportunity to view large, printed out copies of the draft proposals for this section that are under development. Officers will be in attendance to discuss the proposals and answer any questions you may have. Anyone is welcome to drop in at any point during the session and we hope to see you there.

    Regards

    "

    Posted 8 years ago #

  13. Klaxon
    Member

    In response to I

    it does mean private car traffic will have to be substantially reduced

    The reality is that there's actually not much private motor traffic down here for the majority of the day. I've waited at the lights to turn right at into Brunswick Road without a single vehicle beginning to queue coming the other way. Plenty of 'main' streets in Copenhagen don't have bus lanes but do have a full lane width for cycles. Everyone just adapts around the environment given to them...

    I love how arrow straight your cycle lanes are and how much priority is given to pedestrians! Yes please!

    Posted 8 years ago #

  14. i
    Member

    @Klaxon, good point.

    This sums up good bus passes well. https://twitter.com/maidstoneonbike/status/601792267842621440

    Rush hour motor traffic could be replaced by rush hour cycle traffic.

    Posted 8 years ago #

  15. threefromleith
    Member

    Further observation on the tight corner of Leith Walk / Great Junction street. Stand at least a foot back from the kerb when waiting to cross, or you'll likely have your feet flattened under the wheels of a bus.

    I don't think the kerb on the corner will last more than a few weeks given the number of buses clipping or running over it.

    It really is far too tight a turn for buses.

    Posted 8 years ago #

  16. Klaxon
    Member

    New draft plans up presumably in time for consultation tonight

    http://www.edinburgh.gov.uk/download/downloads/id/5658/latest_design_proposals_for_pilrig_street_to_mcdonald_road_section_of_leith_walk_june_2015.pdf

    Just the things I've noticed:

    Brunswick St and Albert St junctions are narrowed to more ped friendly angles but still open. Brunswick St particularly unnecessary, Hillside has many other ways in that aren't useful as rat runs.

    Northbound seg. is now lost at Shrubhill straight in to a newly-off-peak bus lane parking area / door zone with buses weaving over lane twice for stop at Pilrig St.

    Still give ways painted on cycle lanes where they cross side streets

    Posted 8 years ago #

  17. PS
    Member

    That gap at Shrubhill is ridiculous and renders the northbound seg lane somewhat pointless - significantly fewer people will use it if they have to weave in and out of the road to use it.

    And why has it gone? Apparently it is to accommodate a single domestic bin next to a bus stop and to squeeze in an on-road advisory bike lane because the inadequate design of the bus stop after Pilrig Street means that cyclists have to go round the outside of it. Frankly, that's crap.

    Give ways on the cycle lane for side streets is just plain wrong as well - again, it will put people off using them. There's no way traffic into and out of Shrubhill Place Lane should get priority over traffic on Leith Walk. And everyone (cars and bikes) has to give way at Albert Street? Does that make any sense?

    Posted 8 years ago #

  18. chdot
    Admin

    "

    Dear Stakeholder

    LEITH PROGRAMME – DROP-IN INFORMATION SESSION

    A reminder that, in advance of the start of the statutory Traffic Regulation Order (TRO) consultation processes, there is a drop-in session today (Thursday 11 June) between 4 and 8pm in the Nelson Hall, McDonald Road Library.

    The purpose of the session is to allow people to examine proposals for the area of Leith Walk between Pilrig Street and McDonald Road, including both junctions, in some detail.

    You can view the most recent (updated) proposals for this section of the programme here.

    Anyone interested, who would like to come along and find out more about the proposals is welcome to attend. Officers will be on hand to discuss them.

    Regards

    "

    Posted 8 years ago #

  19. chdot
    Admin

    "

    Lesley Hinds (@LAHinds)
    11/06/2015 12:23
    @CyclingEdin @CityCentreLeith #ActiveTravel make your comments known and positive alternatives please

    "

    Posted 8 years ago #

  20. PS
    Member

    Actually, comparing the April design to the current one, it looks like the segregation between Shrubhill and Pilrig St has been removed because they either decided there wasn't enough pavement space to give to cycles there or it was too difficult for them to work out what to do with the segregated lane at Pilrig St.

    They must have decided it was easier to throw cyclists back into the traffic than work out a way of allowing them to stay to the left of the motor traffic.

    Source of the issue is the fact that they haven't got segregated infra north of Pilrig St (despite pavement being just as wide, if not wider down there), so they have to force bikes back onto the road somehow...

    Posted 8 years ago #

  21. PS
    Member

    "

    Lesley Hinds (@LAHinds)
    11/06/2015 12:23
    @CyclingEdin @CityCentreLeith #ActiveTravel make your comments known and positive alternatives please

    "

    My positive alternative is to remove the give way markings on the cycle lanes so cycles do not have to give way to side streets. ;-) I'd suggest that the junction is a raised table, and perhaps even paved to emphasise priority to pedestrians and cycles.

    And for the wider Leith Walk scheme, my positive alternative is segregated cycle lanes, on the pavement side of any car parking/loading bays, the full length of the Walk.

    Not sure if I can make it to McDonald Road Library tonight to be equally positive in person, unfortunately.

    Posted 8 years ago #

  22. Klaxon
    Member

    I would suggest a 'natural' place to put cycles back on to the carriageway would be immediately after a floating bus stop at Pilrig St, in to at least a couple 100m of double red lined bus lane.

    Posted 8 years ago #

  23. acsimpson
    Member

    I'm not sure there's ever a good way to end a good segregated path. A good way for the cyclists would be to bring them into the line of traffic just after a physical obstruction, thereby forcing the traffic to do the merging not the cyclist.

    a bit like this, although ignoring the cycle lane going the other way:

    Posted 8 years ago #

  24. i
    Member

    @Klaxon, a bit like this?

    It would depend if the path merges on the pavement side of the parked cars, or on the existing cycle lane.

    Posted 8 years ago #

  25. i
    Member

    This could be implemented on the new part of leith walk with some modifications to the pedestrian crossings.
    Streetview

    Posted 8 years ago #

  26. Roibeard
    Member

    Having been slightly jaded by this epic, I'm going to pop along to the Library after work to ask for continuous segregated cycle tracks (again).

    Encouraging cyclists not to use the cycle track by only giving priority to those on the main carriageway isn't good. We shouldn't penalise those who opt to use "an exemplar commuter corridor" (TM Keith Brown) by forcing them to cede priority at every junction.

    Robert

    Posted 8 years ago #

  27. UtrechtCyclist
    Member

    The revisions to the plans published this morning seem to be almost entirely bad, not impressed...

    But on a trying-to-be-constructive-and-engage-with-the-planners note, I'm not sure that that it's fair to say that side roads have priority over the bike lanes at junctions, it's more that everyone has to give way and no one has priority. Which is still very bad, but it probably shows that the motivation of the planners was not to give priority to side roads, but rather that they're worried that the priority for bike lane wouldn't be respected and so are encouraging people to slow down.

    Could we give them a UK example of segregated bike infrastructure where the bike lane has priority over side roads and where this hasn't caused thousands of cyclist deaths because car drivers didn't understand? And then argue that give way/ slow down markings on the bike path are unnecessary.

    Posted 8 years ago #

  28. Roibeard
    Member

    @UtrechtCyclist - I'm afraid you're being too kind. Give Way markings on a carriageway have a very clear meaning, which isn't "slow down". Since (most of) the side streets don't have these markings, people on the side street will not expect to give way.

    And if there is a collision, it will be clear that there are give way markings on the cycle track, so the cyclist should have given way (regardless of whether these markings have a legal status on a cycle track - and I've no idea if they do or not).

    Had the designers wanted people on the side street to give way to the cycle track, that would have been marked, and "slow" could have been painted on the cycle track, unambiguously.

    But, yes, I'll be arguing for priority over the side streets via explicit markings and "visual priority" by continuous surfacing of the cycle track, raised tables, sharp radius on the carriageways, etc.

    The above link has some UK examples, some poor, some better, but the best are Not Invented Here (TM), sorry.

    Robert

    Posted 8 years ago #

  29. Min
    Member

    I don't know. Given how much difficulty some drivers seem to have in "seeing" you even when you are in the same lane as them, I wouldn't hold out much hope of them giving way when you are obscured by a bus stop and a couple of double deckers. Although for some reason Albert Street on the other side has the give way markings on the road even though it is also just after a bus stop?

    Posted 8 years ago #

  30. PS
    Member

    There *may* be tables planned at each of the side streets as they all have those double triangles in the carriageway suggesting a bump, but it's not at all clear.

    If there is, then that would suggest that priority is intended for peds/bikes, but they could do a *much* better job of making that clear with raised tables, continuous red cycle lane (not just red chips hiding in black tarmac), and continuous pavement. And take away the give way markings on the cycle lane as they will just cause confusion.

    Posted 8 years ago #

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