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"Pressure on green belt as 10,000 homes to be built"

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  1. chdot
    Admin

    “So where actually is the Green Belt, now? Is it all up for grabs?”

    Highly important questions.

    Seems to be ‘open to interpretation’ far more/far more easily than was (presumably) intended.

    “Issues around schools, medical centres and so on can be tackled using Planning Obligations (AKA Section 75 agreements).“

    I think that’s VERY optimistic. In any case there’s more to adding extra facilities than money.

    All issues, I thought, local and strategic plans were designed to anticipate/direct.

    Basically we’re stuck with ‘more houses - at any price’

    Posted 9 months ago #
  2. Morningsider
    Member

    @chdot - I appreciate your scepticism about s75 agreements. However, the agreement for the Heritage Grange development included an educational contribution of £4.8 million and provision of a serviced site for a new primary school - Frogston Primary, which opened in 2020.

    It also included a payment of £224,000 to reconfigure the Kaimes junction, and a requirement that 25% of homes on site be affordable.

    This isn't nothing.

    Are these developments perfect, or even just good? Not really. However, within the confines of our private sector led planning and house building systems they are probably the best the Council can secure using the powers they curretly have.

    Posted 9 months ago #
  3. chdot
    Admin

    Thanks

    That’s encouraging

    Obviously developers think such sums are an affordable expense. Whether CEC gets enough for the work it has to do, in the short and long terms, is perhaps impossible to calculate.

    The developers will have moved on, presumably with a profit. CEC will be left to pay for the revenue costs of new roads and buildings.

    This may, overall, be to the financial and social benefit of ‘the City’.

    Posted 9 months ago #
  4. chdot
    Admin

    Elsewhere in the city -

    Posted 9 months ago #
  5. neddie
    Member

    Is there really such a huge shortage of housing? Or is it more that people "want"* to live in 4 or 5 bedroom houses, with 2 cars on every drive and 2 spare bedrooms for storing junk and/or the once-in-a-blue-moon visitor, instead of a 2-bed flat in Gorgie?

    Is it really just the developers "talking up the market", stimulating (fake) demand for their own activities and profits?

    I mean, I would be prepared to believe there was a housing shortage if they were building row upon row of tenements out in these Midlothian fields. But they aren't - they are building low-density cauliflower suburbs, creating car-dependent ghettos with no amenities. And even if they are forced to build amenities, those amenities won't survive because low-density housing cannot support them without significant tax rises. All this serves is to spread out the city further and increase car dependency.

    The logical endpoint of all this is a sprawling mess of LA-style suburbs, with nothing but ugly drive-thrus, gas stations and parking lots. Where you can only tell that one suburb has finished and another one started is because the franchises start repeating themselves.

    Is this what we want? Individuallistic thinking superceeding the greater good? We cannot build our way out of a climate emergency either, we have to make do with what we've got (and stop burning stuff).

    Perhaps we should create a new measure, instead of GDP, based on people's welfare? A measure based on health, education, environmental quality, employment, equality, inclusion, democratic engagement, leisure time and of course genuinely needed and sufficient (but not luxury) housing...

    * "want" == desires generated by neoliberalism, consumerism, advertising, the fossil fuel industry, the tech industry and the "everything has to be Instagrammable" generation...

    Posted 9 months ago #
  6. Dave
    Member

    Appreciate this is a scotgov issue and not the individual councils, but exactly. We should be zoning for very dense Paris-style new tenaments/ mansion flat type things. With that population density you get all the amenities in a sustainable way, and it's hard to believe that enough people wouldn't want to lead a Paris-style life (after all there are already millions of detached houses for that demand.)

    There's just no way that the new estates will ever be post-car. You need to walk for 20 minutes just to get to the nearest bus stop, by which time you may as well accept a little waiting in congestion in the comfort of your own vehicle

    Posted 9 months ago #
  7. chdot
    Admin

    Edinburgh can meet the increasing demand for new affordable homes across the city without building on the greenbelt, the council’s housing chief has said.

    Jane Meagher said there are “sufficient brownfield sites at the moment to fulfil our ambitions for house building”.

    https://www.edinburghlive.co.uk/news/edinburgh-news/edinburgh-greenbelt-not-needed-tackle-28682510

    Posted 9 months ago #
  8. Morningsider
    Member

    @Dave and @neddie - you are, of course, both correct. The Scottish planning system is hardly worthy of the name. It has been degraded to such an extent since the 1980's that it is now just a poorly funded management regime for largely speculative private sector development.

    I could write a book on how this situation came about and how it could be tackled (I won't, too much else to do). However, significant issues that need addressed include:

    Our short-term political culture.
    Local government organisation and funding.
    Moving from a reactive to pro-active planning system.
    Tackling the 'regulatory capture' of the planning system by finance and volume developers.
    How public infrastructure is funded.
    Site master planning.
    Patterns of land ownership.
    How we 'capture' the uplift in value from the award of planning permission in the public interest.
    Re-skilling the planning profession.

    I could go on. I suppose what I am saying is, despite reams of policy documents claiming otherwise, that the Scottish planning/development/local government systems are effectively set up to not deliver the 'Parisian' types of development we would like to see.

    Sadly, Edinburgh Council probably exert about as much influence on development as the current system allows.

    Posted 9 months ago #
  9. Dave
    Member

    One of my favourites was when an application came in for a drive thru, and the business case for the extra expense of the drive thru is literally that it increases business, but the reporter overturned the council and approved it... while it was valid to refuse permission he didn't believe it would in fact lead to more driving.

    Posted 9 months ago #
  10. chdot
    Admin

    A commitment was made in 2023 to build 25,000 affordably houses by 2027, bumped up from initial target of 20,000. But according to council figures published on Wednesday, only 950 homes will be completed in 2023 and 2024.

    https://www.edinburghnews.scotsman.com/news/councils-500-affordable-homes-a-year-staggeringly-short-of-target-4528927

    Posted 9 months ago #
  11. Morningsider
    Member

    The nonsense of how we currently go about trying to build 'affordable homes' in Scotland is a prime example of how the system doesn't work. In other northern European countries, a truly local council that is largely independent of national government can acquire land for housing at its current use value, a masterplan is developed for the site, infrastructure is provided before a single house is built, homes are built by the private sector - but to the requirements of the masterplan.

    In Scotland, local authorities set 'ambitious targets' for affordable homes that they have no means of delivering. Councils effectively have to barter planning permission for scraps of land for affordable homes. This land is then developed by a housing association, assuming they can raise the funding. This works against any strategic provision of affordable homes and the planning of public services.

    Posted 9 months ago #
  12. Arellcat
    Moderator

    'Affordable' is one of the meanest and most dishonest words of the last 15 years. It's why four of the people in my team work in Edinburgh but don't live in Edinburgh. To put it another way, this is 100% of my team members who don't live in Glasgow.

    Posted 9 months ago #
  13. chdot
    Admin

  14. neddie
    Member

    There is no shortage of housing in the UK

    (just too many private landlords)

    https://www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/2024/mar/19/end-of-landlords-surprisingly-simple-solution-to-uk-housing-crisis

    Posted 8 months ago #
  15. chdot
    Admin

    55 objections submitted today so far.

    A planning application has been submitted for the greenbelt field opposite Mortonhall Garden Centre (Frogston Road) despite the concerns raised by local residents, Fairmilehead Community Council & @IanMurrayMP .

    The Council has not allocated this field for development as it is not needed to meet housing demand.

    Additionally, the local infrastructure is not in place to support a development of this scale.

    Details and option of commenting here:

    https://citydev-portal.edinburgh.gov.uk/idoxpa-web/applicationDetails.do?activeTab=documents&keyVal=SAZZOQEWFOV00

    Posted 7 months ago #
  16. duncans
    Member

    So South Queensferry doctor's surgery isn't accepting new patients.

    Which will be a bit of a problem for the people buying the 1000s of new houses being built there. Massive house building without infrastructure?!

    Posted 5 months ago #
  17. chdot
    Admin

    Rudlin and his team were awarded the £250,000 Wolfson economics prize for their vision of a new kind of garden city in 2014. He is now calling for Labour to switch from the development of car-reliant housing estates spread around the edges of towns by private developers to a more strategic approach in which local councils decide on the best sites and “take ‘confident bites’ out of the green belt by allocating a few large urban extensions”.

    Each would have about 3,000 to 5,000 homes, dozens of shops at subsidised rents, and schools, creating a sense of a unique place. They would be surrounded by open land or woods so people in the existing neighbouring settlement would not feel they were being overwhelmed by sprawl.

    https://www.theguardian.com/society/article/2024/jul/08/labour-housing-plans-green-belt-land-new-towns-david-rudlin

    Don’t know if there is enough ‘space’ around Ed to make that work.

    Posted 4 months ago #
  18. Arellcat
    Moderator

    awarded the £250,000 Wolfson economics prize for their vision of a new kind of garden city...3000 to 5000 homes, dozens of shops, and schools...a sense of a unique place surrounded by open land...

    Maybe I'm getting old, but a quarter of a million Pounds prize and they've invented villages.

    Posted 4 months ago #
  19. Frenchy
    Member

    At 3000+ homes what they've invented there is definitely a "town".

    Posted 4 months ago #
  20. Arellcat
    Moderator

    That's 'villages' in the modern, Shawfair, living-in-the-country!-but-not-really manner. ;-)

    I think my village is almost a town these days, too.

    Posted 4 months ago #
  21. gembo
    Member

    The population isn’t rising really? So hose building is it a south east of Scotland and south east of England thing fueled by internal migration and divorce? It is completely mental in the SE of England for sure.. but also Winchburgh and East Calder

    Posted 4 months ago #
  22. chdot
    Admin

    Haven’t read the ‘prize winning report’ but I wonder how much they have studied the whole history of Garden Cities/New Towns.

    Some were planned with ‘social engineering’ in mind and degrees of benign(?) authoritarianism - “The original planners intended that all the residents of the garden city would shop in just one shop” https://www.worldgardencities.com/garden-cities/welwyn-garden-city-welwyn-garden-city-united-kingdom .

    Others the reason was more about employment - coal, steel, ‘light industry’ etc. such ‘purposes’ change or disappear - not a new phenomenon.

    Now, presumably, there will be more emphasis on ‘working from home’ - with cafes - with well planned public transport to nearby towns/cities.

    The common thread remains dwelling units/housing. In the past some new towns have been associated with ‘slum clearance’ - even locally, Craigmillar was largely for people displaced from the Old Town and Southside. Sometimes described as ‘a settlement with the population of Musselburgh, but without the amenities’.

    So in 2024, with (lack of) housing officially an ‘emergency’ in many places, it’s hard to be optimistic about nice houses in well planned ‘places’ respecting ‘the environment’ and not upsetting too many ‘local people’.

    Combined of course with ideas of ‘ripping up Planning rule books’.

    In recent times there were grand plans. A joint company with Edinburgh and Midlothian Councils and house builders. A railway station was actually built.

    Shawfair.

    Posted 4 months ago #
  23. chdot
    Admin

    David Rudlin of URBED winning The Wolfson prize has shifted discussion of the housing crisis away from simple expansion - but will it provide the impetus needed to make its alternative a liveable reality?

    https://www.architectural-review.com/essays/david-rudlin-of-urbed-wins-the-wolfson-prize-garden-cities-means-more-than-gardens

    Posted 4 months ago #
  24. chdot
    Admin

    http://urbed.coop/projects/wolfson-economic-prize

    The country that gave the world the Garden City is now build- ing around 100,000 fewer homes each year than it needs to. What is more, the quality of the housing that is built, while better than it used to be, is still poor compared to other Northern European countries, in terms of space standards, environmental performance, layout and infrastructure. For many years URBED’s Nicholas Falk has led study tours to cities like Freiburg, a German city near Basel of a little over 200,000 people that has built two large urban extensions at Vauban and Rieselfeld in the last twenty years. Walking through these new neighbourhoods with UK politicians, professionals and commu- nity activists, past the shining trams, high-quality housing and generous green space, the question asked is always; why can’t we do this?’ The answer is not that we in the UK lack the talent or commitment, but rather that our system makes it if not impossible then at least very difficult.

    http://urbed.coop/sites/default/files/Planning%20in%20London%20Issue%2091%20October-December%202014%20-%20URBED%20Wolfson%20Essay%20Summary.pdf

    But

    Europe

    Posted 4 months ago #
  25. chdot
    Admin

    The next paragraph highlights the main problem and opportunity.

    BUT…

    So in our submission for the 2014 Wolfson Economics Prize we showed how this system might be reformed. The economics of the original Garden City, was based on what its creator Ebenezer Howard called the ‘unearned increment’ – the uplift in the value of land that happens when development takes place. Howard was writing before the planning system was created and today the ‘unearned increment’ is created by the mere allocation of land for development. An average piece of farmland in the UK is worth around £15,000 per hectare. If it is granted consent for housing then its value rises to more than £2M per hectare. That value uplift goes to the farmer and to all the agents, housebuilders, lawyers and consultants who prised the consent out of the local planning authority. In Freiburg and indeed much of Northern Europe, the money and effort is spent not on the land but on the neighbourhood, it builds the trams, creates the parks and schools and is spent on the quality of the housing.

    Posted 4 months ago #
  26. neddie
    Member

    House building is fuelled by house builders' lobbying and subsequent "we need more houses" mantra, plus the "dream" sold by the marketeers of living in a 5-tiny-bedroom cut-and-paste cardboard box with a double garage only big enough to fit one car obese SUV and "drive everywhere" thinking.

    We already have more houses per head of population than the US! The problem is wealth distribution. Go figure.

    Posted 4 months ago #
  27. chdot
    Admin

    Labour’s plans to boost housebuilding by allowing the construction of thousands of homes on green belt land could have the unintended consequence of producing isolated communities, the president of the Royal Institute of British Architects (RIBA) has warned.

    Muyiwa Oki said the government should avoid making the mistakes of the past, which have led to housing estates being built without proper access to transport, schools or shops. This would require more architects and design experts to be hired and retained in local authority planning departments, he said.

    https://www.theguardian.com/society/article/2024/aug/02/labours-grey-belt-plans-could-result-in-isolated-communities-warns-leading-architect

    Posted 3 months ago #
  28. Dave
    Member

    ahem, fancy almost a mile's walk in each direction from your house to the bus? What's that, nobody does anything but drive..?

    https://maps.app.goo.gl/RqztXu5m82WD3CEj8

    Posted 3 months ago #
  29. LaidBack
    Member

    @Dave - yes and uphill to A70! We were out at friends at Curriehill last Sunday. Coming back we left their house at 6.45 and got back into town at 8.15 as a 44 was cancelled at short notice. Even during week I don't think frequency is great although they have improved the 45.
    Trains of course are even rarer!

    Posted 3 months ago #
  30. gembo
    Member

    No trains on a Sunday on the Shotts line at the moment? No 45 on the weekend? Curriehill maybe walk to terminus at Heriot Watt and get more choice? 44 has never made it back to the Pre-Covid heyday. 1845 is the absolute worst time to catch a 44. They are generally all going to Longstone. One night we were 30 mins early at the restaurant as we had factored in the various delays that beset the 44 - road works, driver exchanges, disappearing buses. But none of that happened and the bus raced in Like it used to.

    The phenomenon of being on the 44 and then the next bus eg 20 mins behind catches you and overtakes is not uncommon

    Posted 3 months ago #

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