CityCyclingEdinburgh Forum » Infrastructure

Road layout changes in the west end at Ryans bar? (Also Haymarket)

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  1. cycletrain
    Member

    What was really good, on Thursday night as I approached the dreaded Haymarket section, a taxi was stuck on the "tail" of the rank with his rear sticking out so that only a gap of about half a metre was available between the taxi and the tram track.

    The cyclist in front slowed to negotiate the gap, as did I behind. But, to make life interesting the cyclist, who I would suspect frequents these pages due to the amount of self righteousness diligence shown, stopped to remonstrate with the taxi driver, thereby forcing me onto the tracks.

    Cheers mate!

    Posted 11 years ago #
  2. Focus
    Member

    "who I would suspect frequents these pages due to the amount of self righteousness diligence shown"

    That's quite an assumption.

    Posted 11 years ago #
  3. So was the intention there to insult every single poster on CCE? Odd....

    Posted 11 years ago #
  4. Uberuce
    Member

    It's impossible to have any moral or ethical code without being self-righteous. You must have faith in yourself in order to have faith in your ethics.

    cf: hypocrisy is the price of virtue.

    You have essentially said: the cyclist wasn't a sociopath, so might have been CCE. I am precisely as offended by this as you'd expect.

    Posted 11 years ago #
  5. Focus
    Member

    I think Uberuce has just done the equivalent of those some of African descent reclaiming the "N" word or some Native Americans reclaiming the "I" word :-D

    Posted 11 years ago #
  6. Rosie
    Member

    I was talking to guy of about 70 odd who remembers the old tram system in Edinburgh. He said he used to cycle then and people were always having accidents from the trams and quite a few were killed. He took that as the natural order of things and that we are a lot of wimps wanting special privileges. Don't know if he was exaggerating about cycling accidents in the old tram days.

    Posted 11 years ago #
  7. chdot
    Admin

    'we are a lot of wimps wanting special privileges"

    Posssibly.

    BUT -

    There's a lot more traffic and it's faster.

    And, I also suspect, less tolerant.

    Posted 11 years ago #
  8. Roibeard
    Member

    @Uberuce - It's impossible to have any moral or ethical code without being self-righteous. You must have faith in yourself in order to have faith in your ethics.

    Hmmm - "all our self-righteousness is like a used feminine hygiene product" and "everything I did to meet my own moral code is no better than dog dung".

    It may be that impossible is an overstatement, as the authors [1] had a pretty strong moral and ethical code.

    Robert
    [1] Isaiah and Paul

    Posted 11 years ago #
  9. gembo
    Member

    Am giving a lecture on ethics in December through at Strathclyde. Interestingly the judeao-Christian commandments are largely negative (ok, remember sabbath and mum and dad but then it is all about not doing things) whereas the pillars of Islam are all framed positively the good things you must do (again fasting is seen by me as a good thing).

    I then move on to Immanuel Kant, John Stuart Mill and Captain Hector Barbosa (you may recall the pirate code of ethics are downgraded to more of a set of loose guidelines).

    There is no doubt that we are the righteous diligents. The evidence is plain.

    Is this a bad thing.??

    well, if you return to the greater good arguments of the utilitarians - assuming the first cyclist was on here, which by his/her self righteous ness diligence ness he / she must have been. f he / she had nice chat with taxi driver and he / she saw the issue and started the joint campaign to get improvements then the inconvenience suffered by cycle train was most certainly worth it. Utiliitarians would then argue to maximise the greater good then the engagement with taxi drivers should be worth it. Now I am with JS Mill and his pal Jeremy Bentham but I would ask one caveat, applies to all cycling scenarios. the quick shoulder check is an excellent precaution prior to self righteousness.

    Posted 11 years ago #
  10. minus six
    Member

    Inasmuch as I have sympathy with Žižek's rejection of the Lacanian big Other, nevertheless I remain perennially drawn to embrace my inner Calvinist. Such is the bounty of a bleak north east upbringing.

    Posted 11 years ago #
  11. cycletrain
    Member

    gembo: "but I would ask one caveat, applies to all cycling scenarios. the quick shoulder check is an excellent precaution prior to self righteousness."

    I concur. :)

    Posted 11 years ago #
  12. Roibeard
    Member

    @gembo - your caveat probably applies more universally than stated.

    Welcome to CCE, all life is here...

    Robert

    Posted 11 years ago #
  13. pixelmix
    Member

    I was reminded of kaputnik's video and his comment when filtering to the ASL on West Maitland Street (before turning right to Torphichen Street) this morning.

    Like Kaputnik, I filter to the ASL along the edge of the tram lane which runs in the the opposite direction (separated by a solid white line), and like him I think myself, "strictly speaking "naughty"".

    Couldn't help chuckling this morning at the queue of cars actually sitting in the tram lane waiting to turn in Torphichen Street, which was backed up (presumably because of the Earl Grey Street closure).

    It would be interesting to see their faces when the trams start running!

    Posted 11 years ago #
  14. chdot
    Admin

    Yesterday -

    Posted 11 years ago #
  15. Stickman
    Member

    So the "use dedicated cycle lane" sign is actually at the entrance to the cycle lane? Is there a similar one further back? Those who don't know the junction may spot it very late and then need a quick decision about changing direction or continuing on the main road.

    And I've just come through Haymarket on the bus and the taxis are still lined up beyond Ryries.

    Doesn't seem to be a great solution so far.

    Posted 11 years ago #
  16. Radgeworks
    Member

    @ CHDOT, i think those 3 pictures alone, are worth more than the thousands of words that could accompany them, simple and to the point. THIS - IS - EDINBURGH {SADLY}.
    Nice work,
    and belated Happy Birthday CCE!

    RJ

    Posted 11 years ago #
  17. chdot
    Admin

    "

    Date 28/October/2013

    Status For Immediate Release

    New measures to raise tram line awareness at Haymarket Junction

    The Council is to take steps to address the concerns raised by cyclists about a junction in the Haymarket area. The area was returned to public use on 12th October and since then cyclists have reported a number of falls.

    A cycle lane has been designed and is in place next to Haymarket station and adjacent to the taxi rank. The facility has been designed to redirect bikes away from the track so they can cross at an appropriate angle when rejoining the road.

    However, it has been reported that the number of taxis using the marked rank area has exceeded the three spaces allocated. This has led to queued taxis extending back into the designated cycle lane and blocking access for bikes. This means cyclists are being forced to take the wrong line over tram tracks which can increase the risk of slipping and falling.

    It has been observed that this dedicated cycle area is not being used by the majority of cyclists passing westbound through the junction. The Council has taken steps to raise awareness of the cycle lane and will continue to monitor the situation.

    Transport Convener Lesley Hinds said:

    “We’ve been monitoring the area closely since it came back into public use and listening to the concerns of cyclists and taxi drivers. It’s clear that we need to make some changes in the short term that will improve the situation for cyclists who pass through the area.

    “The most important message for cyclists is to cross the tracks as close to a right angle as possible and to take extra care avoid getting wheels caught in between the rail grooves. Our new measures will help cyclists to get into the right position by using the designated lane to cross tracks. It’s encouraging that cyclists have come to us with their ideas and we’ll be looking further at the suggestion to improve road markings in a way that guides them safely over tracks as they pass through the area.

    “We also want to make more provision for taxis so they can operate effectively in the Haymarket area. It’s important that everyone gets ready for the trams and now that the city centre is clear of tram works we’re keen to take on the views of road users about how they feel the new arrangements on the road are working and we’ll make changes where appropriate.”

    The following measures have been recommended to address the concerns:

    • Council to actively enforce the use of the taxi rank area to reduce the incidence of overspill of taxis.

    • Council to prepare a report to the Regulatory Committee for the management of taxis in the vicinity of Haymarket Station. This could include options to extend taxi facilities in close proximity to the station and sign these appropriately.

    • Additional temporary signage to be installed advising taxis of the limits for ranking

    • Reinforcing the existing signage advising cyclists to approach tram tracks with caution and additional signage directing cyclists towards the cycle route.

    • A road safety audit process is underway and nearing completion and further measures may result.

    • Council tram team to continue to promote the cyclist/tram track interaction messages.

    Signs have already been put in place this week and enforcement action is being used to keep the cycle lane clear. A report into taxi rank facilities are being prepared and road surface options will be reviewed over the coming days.

    A guide to safely crossing tram tracks is available on the Council’s website. This also includes information for drivers and pedestrians.

    The tram project remains in line with the revised budget (£776m) approved by the Council in September 2011, with work either ahead of schedule or in line with the revised timescale reported in December 2011. A passenger service is scheduled for operation in May 2014.

    "

    Posted 11 years ago #
  18. kaputnik
    Moderator

    It's not a "dedicated" lane. If it was "dedicated" it would have a solid line. It's a hashed line, meaning it's advisory.

    If it is a "dedicated" lane, there's no reason it shouldn't be bollarded off, or similar. But that's impractical as taxis have to pass eachother. Therefore again, it's not a "dedicated" lane. So people still won't use it.

    Posted 11 years ago #
  19. Plus the 4 minute (half a mile to a mile) long delay as the lights change (possibly, given it appears they don't detect bikes). I can sense more aggro from drivers as we don't use the 'dedicated' cycle lane.

    Posted 11 years ago #
  20. twq
    Member

    And a major barrier to using it - the wait at traffic lights when there is a potential faster option.

    Posted 11 years ago #
  21. Morningsider
    Member

    Has anyone complained about a lack of signage or road markings at Haymarket - if they have, I'm not aware of it.

    Does the council really think that directing people into a taxi rank (which is mandatory - unlike the cycle lane), to wait at lights which take an age to change, is really a solution here?

    The tone of the press release is veering towards blaming cyclists (and taxi drivers) for the problems caused by the very poor design adopted by the council.

    Flangeway fillers seem such an obvious solution that they should be installed ASAP. Not perfect, but should prevent the majority of incidents.

    Posted 11 years ago #
  22. "Flangeway fillers seem such an obvious solution that they should be installed ASAP. Not perfect, but should prevent the majority of incidents."

    Hopefully that will make it into the next EEN report - I mentioned it to the journalist chap. I also said that no-one is actually calling for the tracks to be ripped up and re-laid differently, as that would be frankly absurd, but we have to work with what is there in the most logical manner - that to me involves the fillers, not putting up some temporary signs.

    "And a major barrier to using it - the wait at traffic lights when there is a potential faster option"

    And as well as faster, completely and totally legal. The problem with the sign is it gives grist to the mill of those who declare that cyclists think they own the road and don't use the facilities that are put in place for their 'safety' (and paid for by drivers' road tax).

    Posted 11 years ago #
  23. Claire
    Member

    I saw this silly nonsense at the weekend and immediately had many questions about this layout...

    1. Signage says it's a dedicated lane but it's not been painted pink so the advanced stop zone will just get sat on by taxis.

    2. I couldn't determine the traffic lights very easily from the ASZ - can you see them okay from where you are on the bike when parked up?

    3. Are you meant to use this when you're in the traffic and the light is green? So you go off into the lane for three seconds and then back into traffic?

    4. If so, how does that work for drivers? Will they assume I'm filtering off to go to the station and get annoyed when I move back into traffic again?

    5. There's no cycle lane after the ASZ. So what is the point?

    6. I'm so confused.

    I'm not sure I 'm going to use that crazy 12 feet of madness to be honest. If you can help me with my questions I might change my mind! :)

    Posted 11 years ago #
  24. wingpig
    Member

    2: The lights can be seen from the ASZ but a single bicycle is insufficient to trigger the lights. fortunately, taxis moving into the ASZ to drop people off often trigger it on behalf of waiting cyclists.

    3: Yes. No matter how primary one is coming out of Morrison St one must and shall ebb leftwards across impatient vehicles prior to encountering any rails.

    4: One is always in the way of cars behind, but by switching left into the jug-handle one can spread out this annoyance rather than impeding one lane all the way through to past the bit where coaches drop people off at the tram stop.

    Posted 11 years ago #
  25. chdot
    Admin

  26. skotl
    Member

    The EEN news story has the usual trolls again. All these "armchair cyclists" suggesting that the people who fall don't have the "necessary skills to navigate the junction".

    Meanwhile... I got the train this morning and came out of Haymarket startion at 09:15 to find a Private Hire call totally blocking the new cyclists escape route (are PHCs even allowed in the taxi rank) and *seven* taxis beyond the "Extent of Taxi Rank" sign.
    I wonder when the fabled enforcement is going to start...

    Posted 11 years ago #
  27. twinspark
    Member

    Erm... If the lane is dedicated, why is there a taxi parked in it (and in the ASL?)!

    Posted 11 years ago #
  28. The grammatical error in the quote from me was not made by me! ;)

    Posted 11 years ago #
  29. kaputnik
    Moderator

    are PHCs even allowed in the taxi rank
    I think there's a sign that says "authorised taxis only", so they would need a Scotrail permint or something.

    I wonder when the fabled enforcement is going to start...

    Both times I've cycled through (840AMish) there have been 1 or 2 polices there and - surprisingly - no offending taxis in sight.

    Posted 11 years ago #
  30. Oh my, the comments are as special as ever...

    Posted 11 years ago #

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