CityCyclingEdinburgh Forum » Infrastructure

Road layout changes in the west end at Ryans bar? (Also Haymarket)

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  1. HankChief
    Member

    Just had my first clean run through.

    Only 3 taxis waiting so into the jug handle- no problem.

    Lights to exit the jug handle had been green (to let a taxi and ordinary car out from the RHS) so expected a bit of a wait. To my surprise they went green (again) pretty quickly.

    This mean I only caught a glimpse of what I will describe as a mini-jug-handle on the outside of the pavement but effectively doing the same thing. Staying to the left of the tram tracks until the taxi exit and then turning fairly sharply to cross the tracks at a reasonable angle.

    More options for cyclists, but the key is whether you will have already been forced to cross thw tracks because of overflowing taxis.

    Posted 11 years ago #

  2. rbrtwtmn
    Member

    Just a quick observation: have been following this thread since the beginning without getting around to contributing. People have been making some absolutely excellent points (part of the reason I've not contributed is that I don't have anything wiser to add than has already been said).... But I did want to observe that some of the more recent chat might be missing the point. So much talk about the behaviour of taxi drivers. So much about the jug handle. But even without the taxi drivers and without the jug handle this junction is a disaster for cyclists.

    Don't get me wrong, I've had my fair share of run-ins with taxi drivers over many many years of cycling - and some lovely occurrences of good and friendly behavior too - but to concentrate on them in relation to this terrible piece of design misses the point doesn't it?

    Sorry - this isn't intended to sound critical, but I am aware that this discussion is in public and I'd like to make sure that we don't get distracted into one aspect of this simply because it's perhaps easier to think about solving.

    Posted 11 years ago #

  3. SRD
    Moderator

    I don't cycle this route regularly so it is a bit academic to me - so apologies if I fail to see any way forward.

    What depresses me massively is looking at this in conjunction with the threads of st Andrew square and the mound/princes street is that all three of them show the inability/unwillingness of tram provision to consider bicycles on the road. Add this to lack of bike/ped provision at hay market and I really despair,

    But what particularly worries me in view of Ian maxwell's comment int he EEN is that like St Andrew s square and the mound, the 'solution' here will be to put bikes on the pavement.

    A lose-lose situation.

    I've supported these disastrous trams through a lot, but I am starting to lose any hope that we can actually integrate different modes of travel.

    Posted 11 years ago #

  4. chdot
    Admin

    "but to concentrate on them in relation to this terrible piece of design misses the point doesn't it?"

    You're right, but -

    I think any recent posts that concentrate on taxi drivers have to be understood in the context of the fact(s) that after 'we' have 'all agreed' that the layout is a mess and CCE has had meetings with taxi organisations and site visits, (some) taxi drivers are still doing dangerous and illegal things (not always the same thing!) unless they spot the police.

    I (think I) have said at least twice upthread that I sympathise with taxi drivers (at Haymarket, because of the infrastructure) but...

    Posted 11 years ago #

  5. Arellcat
    Moderator

    all three of them show the inability/unwillingness of tram provision to consider bicycles on the road.

    Probably both, rather than either/or. The acid test of cycle infrastructure should be: if a 7-year old can use it safely and a velomobile can use it without doing 43-point turns and Joe and Jo Public can use it without having to think how to use it, it's probably OK.

    Posted 11 years ago #

  6. chdot
    Admin

    "But what particularly worries me in view of Ian maxwell's comment int he EEN is that like St Andrew s square and the mound, the 'solution' here will be to put bikes on the pavement."

    I think that Haymarket "solution" is about the lack of left turn off Dalry Road (exactly the same as at the bottom of The Mound) and nothing to do with the taxi rank/jug handle - except that it's all tram related!

    I assume we'll soon find bike symbols by Ryrie's (exactly the same as at the bottom of The Mound) - unless the 'fuss' has made them think again!

    Of course that will have been planned/TROed 3 years ago too.

    Since then there has been a growing realisation among some 'cycle campaigners' that 'bike provision at the expense of pedestrians' isn't a good idea/equitable.

    Closer links with anyone 'representing pedestrians' is clearly a good idea/much needed.

    People who ride bikes in Edinburgh may well have to accept that 'cycling everywhere' is no longer an option. Well that's only fair isn't it? That's what 'we' want for drivers isn't it?

    Well yes and NO.

    'We' all know that things are done better in (parts of) Europe and want some of the same.

    This is also (allegedly) what (parts of) the Government and Council want too.

    Not gonna happen until cars are discouraged/restricted more.

    Spent a small part of the afternoon down town. Cars parked on the top part of The Mound (well it is Sunday) and the bottom half barriered-off for no (initially apparent) reason.

    Then discovered that cycle access to George Street was virtually impossible as there were more barriers and stages in the street.

    Is it going to be like this until New Year??

    So much for the ambitions for 'proper' cycle lanes on George Street.

    So not bad for pedestrians (which is good) and shambolic for 'must get to the shops - free parking on Sunday' drivers and diverted bus passengers.

    Posted 11 years ago #

  7. HankChief
    Member

    I agree with your sentiment and acknowledge I'm one of those pushing the taxi drivers behaviour angle.

    The design at Haymarket is appalling for several different user groups. We'd all be interested in knowing how it got past the design stage and actually built.

    The question is what can now be done about it. Given the difficulties of installation and alignment of the tracks, you have to assume any solution would now have to work on the surrounding infrastructure, which will have limited effect.

    I'd love to be wrong but I can't see the council taking this on - and how much effort is it worth 'us' trying to persuade them.

    Is changing taxi drivers' behaviours the best we can hope for?

    Posted 11 years ago #

  8. chdot
    Admin

    "Is changing taxi drivers' behaviours the best we can hope for?"

    Possibly!

    I may even backtrack on my last post.

    They are only doing what they are doing because they (mostly) can.

    Whether CEC and Police Scotland have 'agreed' that full-on-enforcement would be 'unfair' or they know they haven't the resources isn't clear.

    But CEC knows that its infrastructure is dangerous partly because drivers - licensed by CEC - are breaking the law. (Or perhaps they are not until further bits if the tram-related regulations come into force??)

    It's going to be an interesting court case if there ever is a real tragedy.

    Posted 11 years ago #

  9. chdot
    Admin

    "

    Police and city transport leaders hope that the crackdown will help solve some of the problems that have been seen recently on the roads in Haymarket.

    Pc Stephen Kirk, from Police Scotland, said: “Haymarket is a particular concern as it’s a dangerous area for cyclists, due to how busy the junction is and the tram tracks in place.”

    "

    http://www.edinburghnews.scotsman.com/news/transport/driver-gets-asbo-during-police-cycling-crackdown-1-3210254

    Posted 11 years ago #

  10. chdot
    Admin

    "Tram line blackspots for cyclists identified"

    (Inc two at Haymarket.)

    "

    Mr Hawkins said: “We’ve held ­numerous discussions with the council all through the tram ­process and urged a more balanced ­approach to its design. The situation at ­Haymarket train station is incredible and really confusing for all road users not just cyclists.

    "

    http://www.citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=11750&replies=1#post-135005

    Posted 11 years ago #

  11. skotl
    Member

    As I've suggested in another couple of posts, I'm starting to think that the only way to remedy (not fix) the current situation is for peds/cyclists to photograph or film taxis that are ignoring the regulations and send the footage to the council taxi office.

    This isn't going to endear the taxi trade to us cyclists but a number of drivers are ignoring the law because they know they won't be caught.

    It's affirmative action, and not everyone will be comfortable with it, but passive action doesn't seem to be working, and the council seem to be simply hoping that it will all go away.
    Thoughts?

    Posted 11 years ago #

  12. chdot
    Admin

    "This isn't going to endear the taxi trade"

    Posted 11 years ago #

  13. amir
    Member

    No - as with commercial vehicle drivers, they don't seem to connect others on the road with potential customers.

    Posted 11 years ago #

  14. neddie
    Member

    I avoid using Taxis where possible for these very reasons, and I actively discourage my wife from doing so too.

    So they've already lost one and a bit customers.

    Posted 11 years ago #

  15. Stickman
    Member

    So, Edinburgh Council, which route do you want cyclists to take through Haymarket?

    The jug-handle which was specially put in for cyclists (and not-so-clearly marked) or the newly maked "cycle lane" on the main road which takes a sudden diversion into the exit of the jug-handle to give a steeper approach to the tracks?

    I never noticed this new addition until this evening - has it been there long? I don't know if I've explained it very well, perhaps someone could post a photo?

    Confusion for cyclists increases once more.

    Posted 11 years ago #

  16. Stickman
    Member

    Oh, and thanks to the two taxis backed up to Ryries who both did a u-turn in front of me as I attempted to enter the jug handle tonight. Neither of them looked for me, or if they did then they didn't care I was approaching.

    Posted 11 years ago #

  17. SRD
    Moderator

    @stickman

    here is drawing of what you describe : spout maybe?

    Hay market

    (amazing it worked! )

    Posted 11 years ago #

  18. Baldcyclist
    Member

    That drawing, that is more or less the strategy I employ for crossing the lines

    Posted 11 years ago #

  19. wingpig
    Member

    How long has that been there? I went through (on the road, in the dark) this evening and didn't notice it but then was staying in the right-hand lane until at least the ped crossing by the tram stop so that I didn't get stuck behind a parked bus.

    Posted 11 years ago #

  20. HankChief
    Member

    @wingpig. How long has that been there?

    I spotted it Monday night. See my post at top of this page...

    Posted 11 years ago #

  21. Stickman
    Member

    Sorry HankChief, didn't spot it despite using the jug-handle four times this week!

    Posted 11 years ago #

  22. allebong
    Member

    For someone like myself who hasn't yet had the pleasure of having to go through Haymarket what's the general consensus on the best least worst way of doing it? Or should I just avoid it completely?

    Given the rate at which things are changing I wouldn't be surprised if any advice is outdated by tomorrow though. You never know when the problem might be 'solved' by a few more lines being painted on the roads.

    Posted 11 years ago #

  23. wingpig
    Member

    Now that the jughandle exit lights detect bikes and as the right-hand lane along Morrison Street is usually filled with right-turning traffic the jughandle is a reasonable option, though you have to remember to go straight to the right-hand lane on Haymarket Terrace in order to avoid parked buses.

    Posted 11 years ago #

  24. Stickman
    Member

    @Wingpig:

    Agreed, now I know the junction and the lights have been fixed the jug-handle is the best option if you balance a minute delay against gambling with traffic+tramlines.

    The biggest problem for me is the queue of taxis waiting. I've actually got off the bike and walked round the end of the queue to get to the lights on a couple of occasions.

    Posted 11 years ago #

  25. chdot
    Admin

    "
    Krister Isaksson (@KristerIsaksson)
    30/11/2013 17:51
    @OlleEvenas @PerErikHahn @nielshoe @herbert_tiemens @cyklaarkul Warning, look out for the tram!

    http://pic.twitter.com/vXzV1yuAYh

    "

    Posted 10 years ago #

  26. Focus
    Member

    @ Stickman

    Photo

    Video

    [+] Embed the video | Video DownloadGet the Flash Videos

    Staying between track and pavement clearly invites bad drivers to squeeze in beside you. Avoid!

    Posted 10 years ago #

  27. Stickman
    Member

    Thanks Focus. That's what I thought - taking that new lane means being squeezed followed by a big swerve in then out which drivers probably aren't expecting, follows by another squeeze.

    I know people have been using that tactic off their own back, but I think it has been out of necessity. For the council to effectively "approve" this approach is interesting to say the least.

    Posted 10 years ago #

  28. Dave
    Member

    "The absence of a cycle lane is nearly always preferable to a cycle lane that is too narrow i.e. below 1.5-2.0m .

    This is principally because motorists tend to drive right up to the line, which may be too close to cycle traffic. They also direct cyclists too close to the kerb, often a hazardous and uncomfortable place."

    I volunteer to drive a motor vehicle, fast, in the traffic lane while council officials cycle in that vanishing mini-lane.

    Posted 10 years ago #

  29. Wilmington's Cow
    Member

    I've argued before, when someone took umbrage at me staying out in the lane between parked cars, that it was more dangerous for me to swing in and out of the traffic flow.

    Posted 10 years ago #

  30. Morningsider
    Member

    Cycling by Design (Scottish Government) guidance on cycle lane width states:

    "Lane widths narrower than 1.5m can present a hazard to cyclists and motor vehicle drivers. Only in exceptional circumstances should widths down to 1.0m be considered where it is safe to do so – for example where stationary traffic blocks the route to an advance stop line and the proposed lane is safe from obstructions such as gullies.

    Sub-standard width or poorly located cycle lanes can provide a false sense of security for both cyclists and motor vehicle drivers and encourage poor lane discipline from both. In many cases, a narrow cycle lane can encourage close proximity overtaking by motor vehicles (Parkin, J and Meyers, C (2009)). Limited space alone is not a reason for providing sub-standard width cycle lanes. Alternative solutions should be sought at such locations."

    Posted 10 years ago #

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