CityCyclingEdinburgh Forum » Infrastructure

Road layout changes in the west end at Ryans bar? (Also Haymarket)

(764 posts)

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  1. Focus
    Member

    "I've seen a few folk find they are cycling right onto the tram only section."

    And it's easy to imagine even though I haven't seen it happen myself. It's almost a case of the old "don't look at an obstacle or you'll ride into it" advice. I've found myself consciously making myself look away from the continuation of the tram lines as psychologically those lines 'want you' to continue in the wrong direction.

    I really fear for some idiot driver overtaking a cyclist round that bend and leaving the cyclist nowhere to go but straight ahead, possibly with a tram approaching. And it won't surprise me if one day it happens.

    Posted 10 years ago #
  2. bdellar
    Member

    The Spokes plan looks good, but I'd like to see how it would connect to Dalry Road. All too often bike infrastructure is good in itself, but doesn't connect to anywhere...

    Posted 10 years ago #
  3. fimm
    Member

    "tram only section"? do you mean the bit in front of Haymarket Station, or further on at Haymarket Yards? If you mean the bit in front of the station, I'm afraid I deliberately cycle in there and get off in front of the doors because I'm lazy. Maybe when the trams are actually running I'll get off and walk from further back.

    Posted 10 years ago #
  4. chdot
    Admin

    "
    LEGAL eagles have warned the city council that it is leaving itself open to a slew of injury claims as a result of “lethal” tram tracks at Haymarket.

    "

    http://www.edinburghnews.scotsman.com/news/transport/lawyers-say-trams-open-up-to-injury-claims-1-3330772

    Posted 10 years ago #
  5. fimm
    Member

    Given my rant on another thread about cycling on the pavement my post above is a bit hypocritical!!

    Posted 10 years ago #
  6. chdot
    Admin

    "
    Tramline crashes are now less frequent than in 2013, with greater awareness by regular cyclists and with removal of the Haymarket taxi rank which forced cyclists into the tramlines. Nonetheless they continue at a depressing rate and we have had the first case where the victim was hit by a passing car, which ran over her foot. The worst locations for crashes appear to be...

    "

    More -

    http://www.spokes.org.uk/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2009/09/spwkr14.03.12.pdf

    Posted 10 years ago #
  7. Kenny
    Member

    OK, so this afternoon I had to attempt to traverse the tram tracks at Haymarket for only the 3rd time ever. I still can't work out what the best route to take is, so here's a video of what I did, and maybe someone can tell me what I'm doing wrong, because I'm basically having to bunny hop over the tracks as I'm crossing them at an angle I'm not happy with, and believe me I ain't no Martyn Ashton.

    [+] Embed the video | Video DownloadGet the Flash Videos

    Posted 10 years ago #
  8. Stickman
    Member

    I go through Haymarket every day and to be honest I don't think there is any perfect way to do this.

    After nearly taking a spill on the rails (and witnessing someone fall right in front of me) I am uber-cautious. I've kind of defaulted to using the wee daft semi-circular bike lane to cross over. (It's just after the bit where you started to cross in your video).

    However it has it's own problems:

    - traffic coming up behind doesn't always recognise what you are doing, so you have to slow down and really look behind you
    - there can be a conflict with cyclists following behind as well. Some will follow you round while others do the bunny-hop thing
    - sometimes taxis creep over the stop line at the drop-off and block the cut-in. This means that you have to make a last minute decision on when to cut across.
    - worse, there have been a few times where cars or taxis coming out of the drop-off point have ignored the red light altogether

    For me though it's the least worst option as I can take it slowly and I have a bail-out onto the island but if it does all go wrong.

    I do see some cyclists take the extreme outside of the right hand lane coming from Morrison St and make the jump over the tracks at the earliest possible moment. That seems to work for them. I've tried that a few times, but I don't like the cars so close up my backside when I'm trying to perform the awkward crossing.

    Ultimately I'm afraid that it's whatever you feel most comfortable with. Some people have no issues with it, but for me it'sjust a terrible bit of road to get through.

    Posted 10 years ago #
  9. DaveC
    Member

    Perhaps if the council made that dropoff point into some sort of phased traffic lights jug handle...?

    Seriously never having cycled that way I can't offercany suggestions. Where do you start and where do you stop/destination? If it were me I'd look at an alternative. For instance Laidback to Craigleith. Meadows - kings theatre - Guilmore pl - polworth - Harrison gdns - Ardmillan -Muriston - Russel rd....

    When viewed on a map its a nondirect route but so much quieter!

    Posted 10 years ago #
  10. wingpig
    Member

    Hmm. There's a thread for this somewhere...

    Aha. Page 4 of this thread.

    As there are usually buses unloading in the left-hand lane and the taxi-free jug-handle is usually packed with pedestrians when I go past in the evenings I go in the right-hand lane along the last bit of Morrison St and stay in the right-hand lane all the way through until clear of the parked buses, though I have specificially tested the various options thoroughly to make sure I know where the tracks and other metalwork are.

    Posted 10 years ago #
  11. douglaswaring
    Member

    Seconded. Right-hand lane all the way.

    Posted 10 years ago #
  12. Focus
    Member

    'Thirded'.

    But as I don't use the route as often as I used to (pre-tram), I have to remind myself to go from cycle lane to right-hand lane at the foot of Morrison Street.

    Posted 10 years ago #
  13. douglaswaring
    Member

    It's the least unsafe option, which is quite depressing really.

    Posted 10 years ago #
  14. paul.mag
    Member

    I tend to take it easy and go down the left hand side of the tracks, if the lights go red then I can move into the jug handle and if not I go between the track and the kerb waiting till the silly little cycle lane starts and then make a sharp(ish) right turn. I think the only secret to this piece of road is to take it easy from Morrison street over the next 200 yards you have 3 sets of lights tram tracks, pedestrians bustling along, bus stops, taxi ranks and some pretty horrific road surfaces. I don't think you are going to be able to do all the lights in one go and if you do you have a good chance of falling foul to one or more of the obstacles above.

    Posted 10 years ago #
  15. wingpig
    Member

    "...pedestrians bustling along..."

    I hope the light sequences at Haymarket are never changed without warning, as with the Torphichen/West Maitland set, or scores of pedestrians scurrying between the various islands will be caught out.

    Posted 10 years ago #
  16. kaputnik
    Moderator

  17. SRD
    Moderator

    and the 'copymade' guy gets another go at them too. yay.

    Posted 10 years ago #
  18. PS
    Member

    “If someone got a taxi at Haymarket and wanted to go to Shandwick Place it would probably normally cost about £2.60, but waiting for a tram to pass adds 25p a minute, so that could easily double the fare.”

    Or they could get the tram for £1.50.
    Or they could walk. :-o

    Posted 10 years ago #
  19. steveo
    Member

    and the 'copymade' guy gets another go at them too. yay.

    Since he has manage to survive tramageddon you'd think he could now shut up. I didn't sink his business, it may have affected his income but then so could a number of other unrelated factors.

    Posted 10 years ago #
  20. acsimpson
    Member

    I suspect he's benefited from the free publicity. In which case I wouldn't expect him to pipe down just yet.

    Posted 10 years ago #
  21. Stickman
    Member

    Of course taxi drivers never cause delays through Haymarket:

    This morning a black cab decided that he didn't want to be in the left-hand straight on lane at West Maitland Street so tried to force his way into the right hand lane. He blocked the left hand lane completely and had to wait until the right hand lane went through its phase before moving in enough to clear things. Absolutely nothing to do with the trams, just stupid selfish driving.

    The benefit was that bikes had a completely free run down West Maitland and got a fleeting glimpse of what a traffic-free Edinburgh could be like....

    Posted 10 years ago #
  22. neddie
    Member

    A splish splash splosh of red paint and this junction is declared...

    SAFE.

    (or not)

    See plans for Haymarket below

    https://www.dropbox.com/s/yly4ah9jwpak0ba/P9_2_019_Haymarket.pdf?dl=0

    Posted 9 years ago #
  23. chdot
    Admin

    "Coloured surfacing"

    Too 'dangerous' to rely on chips??

    Posted 9 years ago #
  24. Arellcat
    Moderator

    Is that plan for Haymarket really the best they can do? Mind you, short of ripping up footways and realigning the Queen's Highway, it seems that all we are able to do without inconveniencing 'drivers' is fiddle around the edges with paint.

    Cyclists are now being (effectively) ordered* to take a certain route, despite the way that it simultaneously 1) disadvantages them in terms of progress, but 2) benefits them in crossing the tracks at the better angle.

    It isn't for everyone but the nearside lane by the tram stop is invariably full of buses, which then requires a further manoeuvre to pass them amongst impatient motorists. Taking the offside lane from Morrison Street actually gives a better route across each pair of tracks...yet the plans show the ASL box to be removed on that lane! A road junction in the 21st century should never require nerves of steel in order to be cycled across safely.

    I've said this before. The problem at Haymarket is not the tram tracks, it's motorists who hound cyclists—both intentionally and not—into rushing and not giving the more vulnerable users the space to cycle safely over the tracks. Why not make the motorists take the diversionary route?

    * "subject to suitable risk assessment" - any chance 'we' might find out more details of that?

    Posted 9 years ago #
  25. HankChief
    Member

    So all they are doing is colouring the narrow route to the left of the tracks...and saying we MUST follow it.

    If they don't move the kerb then it can't be wide enough. Not when the right hand edge is a sunken tram line. I have my trailer ready to try it out...

    And then what angle are you told to cross the tracks at? If you are commanded to stay inside the path you will still be at too shallow an angle.

    Sorry, don't see how this is a solution when effectively it is saying we are the problem by falling off just because we're not following this route. So when we do follow the route and still fall off who's fault is it then?

    Posted 9 years ago #
  26. wingpig
    Member

    It looks like a bad joke. If you don't enter the cycle lane to begin with then you can't keep to it. "Non prescribed" anyway.

    Posted 9 years ago #
  27. Greenroofer
    Member

    That 'non-prescribed' sign is as bad as the 'cyclists dismount' sign on the aqueduct. There should be a law against the powers that be erecting signs like this that have no legal force: all it will do is give drivers licence to say "You should be in the cycle lane".

    Posted 9 years ago #
  28. Stickman
    Member

    I'm hoping that the traffic order imposing a 10mph speed limit for all vehicles through this junction is all set to go...oh no, can't inconvenience anyone with a motor for the sake of some "non-prescribed" cyclists.

    Posted 9 years ago #
  29. DdF
    Member

    Although it's certainly not a complete solution, it does look to me like an improvement which can be implemented quickly and is likely to somewhat reduce the number of crashes. I very much doubt the council would claim or expect that it is a complete solution - have they said that?

    For the longer term, they have promised to investigate the Spokes Haymarket proposal [Bulletin 118] as part of the Roseburn-Leith east-west route, but the Spokes proposal only makes sense as part of a major restructuring extending well beyond Haymarket - it could not be implemented in isolation.

    No solution will please everyone. For example, the spokes proposal, with extensive segregation, is likely to slow down faster cyclists unless they instead choose to remain on the road, and has been criticised on those grounds. On the other hand, hopefully it would give a lot more people the confidence to go by bike.

    Yes, the fact that the council is using coloured surfacing (rather than chips) suggests that they do regard this as a dangerous location. Spokes has fought hard and without success against chipping in general but the council has always maintained that chips are a necessary balance between visibility and economy of maintenance, and that actual red surfacing would be used at particularly hazardous locations - this looks like it will be the first such example.

    Spokes gets a lot of reports of bike tramline crashes at Haymarket, and we can't help noticing that many are to experienced cyclists who regularly use the junction and are astonished that they have been caught out. These quotes and incidents are frightening and convince me that the kerbside route is the safest route for most people, now that the Council has eliminated the taxi-parking problem.

    Obviously the main problem was failure to consider cycling (or indeed peds or buses) when the tramline layout was decided; but we all, and the council, are now stuck with that layout.

    Obviously too, the council's current immediate proposal has various problems, some of which have been pointed out above, but are there better suggestions? - either rapidly implementable or longer term - which are likely to reduce the number of crashes and be acceptable to a wide range of cyclists??? If there are good ideas which are widely acceptable then it would be good for them to be discussed and passed to the council.

    Posted 9 years ago #
  30. stiltskin
    Member

    No, sorry. They really don't have a clue do they?

    Posted 9 years ago #

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