CityCyclingEdinburgh Forum » Infrastructure

Road layout changes in the west end at Ryans bar? (Also Haymarket)

(764 posts)

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  1. Tulyar
    Member

    Supplemental - but Unlike all other UK tram systems Edinburgh's Tram system does not benefit from the objective scrutiny of the Rail Accident Investigation Branch, carrying out independent and objective investigations of tram system incidents, and providing the Rail Regulator (who (I'm advised by ORR) DOES regulate the Edinburgh Tram operations), with recommendations to require action from the operators and infrastructure providers to eliminate hazards entirely or manage the risks and mitigate the potential of serious incidents.

    The reason that this situation arises is purely legislative. Holyrood has not processed the relevant legislative measures to apply this condition to tram systems in Scotland. I understand that this issue has been hanging around since at least November 2014, and possibly set in motion originally in January 2014.

    An RAIB report on the 2 X38 bus service vs tram crashes in the same location at roughly the same time on a weekday, would have identified the fact that the bus drivers were basically following the route as designed, pulling over to the right to use the bus lane running directly over the tram rails from the junction with Morar Place. The traffic signal sequence at W Maitland Street (or more accurately a lack of any consistent sequence) can show green signals to road traffic for all 3 directions as well as giving 2 green signal periods for Atholl Place but no signal at all for Torphichen Street in that period. It can also give a green signal for both road vehicles and trams to head east along Atholl Place simultaneously with obvious results when a bus or taxi, following the road markings as directed pulls over to the right and into the side of a tram. Despite 2 identical crashes the potential for a repeat performance, still this situation of a green light for motor traffic and a simultaneous cleared signal for trams appears to exist.

    I took as short video of the situation with a bus, a taxi, and a tram heading East on 31/12, and on later viewing noted the move by the taxi driver, obviously aware of the fickle nature of the system in delivering a right turn green light, driving in to Atholl Place, making a U turn, and then left into Torphichen Street. Fortunately doing this just before the tram rolled through.

    Anyone want to ask their MSP what is happening about this?

    It is also rather prescient that Carolyn Griffiths the Chief Officer of RAIB is delivering a talk to the Railway Division of IMechE in Glasgow next week. I expect a few engineers on this forum might be going along.

    Posted 9 years ago #
  2. Morningsider
    Member

    Tulyar - This is about to change. Section 40 of the Deregulation Bill, currently being considered by the UK Parliament, will remove the restriction on the RAIB investigating tramway accidents in Scotland.

    This change was agreed by the Scottish Parliament in August 2014 - it is now up to the UK Parliament to pass the Bill.

    You can find details of the Bill at: http://services.parliament.uk/bills/2014-15/deregulation.html

    Posted 9 years ago #
  3. acsimpson
    Member

    Will that cover all accidents caused by the tram network or only ones involving an actual tram?

    Posted 9 years ago #
  4. chdot
    Admin

    Dave H (@BCCletts)
    05/12/2014 14:20
    First cycle friendly veloSTRAIL crossing now installed on mainline railway - Walton Street, Hull. pic.twitter.com/qF4Q2zLNqb

    Posted 9 years ago #
  5. chdot
    Admin

  6. chdot
    Admin

    [+] Embed the video | Video DownloadGet the Flash Videos

    Posted 9 years ago #
  7. chdot
    Admin

    "
    this STRAIL® product will contribute to improving road safety in Geneva and other cities.

    "

    http://www.strail.de/uploads/media/PB_veloSTRAIL_Test_installation_Geneva_gb_UK_low.pdf

    Posted 9 years ago #
  8. Tulyar
    Member

    http://www.strail.de/uploads/media/PB_veloSTRAIL_Test_installation_Geneva_gb_low.pdf

    This describes retro fitting at 2 locations however the tram systems outside the UK are constructed in a far faster and more economical way than in the UK. The UK builds (or built) massively over specified slabs in high strength reinforced concrete, onto which there are then added massive pockets also in high strength reinforced concrete into which rails are fitted and adjusted with shims etc before these are locked in place with more concrete. All thoroughly robust but now a massive problem for some of the systems where rails - which have moved or worn away - cannot be easily repaired by welding (wrong steel) welded - and unlike systems outside the UK many of our 'new era' tram track designs opted to avoid use of tie bars between the rails fearing a stray current problem and so the rails moved as they flexed in the concrete...and...the road cracked

    It takes only 4 hours to fit the panels BUT preparing the hole and digging out the concrete will take a bit longer.

    Given that there are 2 traffic lanes here I think that this may actually be deliverable without closing the road or the tram track, if carefully planned.

    The major problem is in the Catch 22 - no one has installed this system on a UK tram network, and so there is no proven product which can be specified for installation on a UK tram network (although a trial veloSTRAIL system was offered for the level crossing on Eastfield Avenue, but the offer declined, because the building programme was 'sealed' at that point and the issues associated with making a change from using the standard product were not readily resolved - again that catch 22!).

    Posted 9 years ago #
  9. HankChief
    Member

    Anyone know how many reported falls there have been at Haymarket?

    Two good friends came down on the tram lines in the last week.

    It needs to be fixed, fixed properly and fixed soon. This can't go on.

    Posted 9 years ago #
  10. neddie
    Member

    All crashes or other incidents relating to tramlines should be reported to City of Edinburgh Council, who are keeping a record and using this to try and identify problems which need addressed. The preferred reporting method is freephone 0800 328 3934 or you can email trams@edinburgh.gov.uk or write to Tram Project Office, 9 Lochside Avenue, Edinburgh EH12 9DJ.

    Please report such incidents even if they were in the past and you have only just discovered this reporting method, and even if you have already notified the police or anyone else. These contacts can also be used for any queries about the tram or tramlines.

    Please also report your crash to Spokes – for example, if you email as above to report your crash please cc: to Spokes.

    From:

    http://www.spokes.org.uk/wordpress/documents/public-transport/tram/

    Posted 9 years ago #
  11. Tulyar
    Member

    Technically the road surface between the rails and 18" to either side is maintained by, and 'the premises' of the tramway 'owner' Any injury incident that requires a visit to hospital and treatment should be reported as a RIDDOR event. Lesser crashes can be reported as already noted

    Posted 9 years ago #
  12. chdot
    Admin

  13. Tulyar
    Member

    To anyone with a particular interest in tram track safety for cyclists

    This relates primarily to Nottingham's NET but there may be some detail to catch up with or note from Edinburgh experiences.

    At the meeting we had last June with Tramlink Nottingham to discuss ways of reducing the risks of cyclists slipping on tram tracks one of the actions agreed was, nearer the time of completion of most of the track installation work, to hold two site meetings, for both route, to inspect the work to record features which might be hazardous for cyclists.

    We have now reminded Tramlink and their contractors of this agreement and hope to arrange the meetings in the next few weeks. To help us prepare for them we are now keen to get detailed feedback from cyclists with detailed knowledge of both routes to add to the information we have started to collect in the last few weeks.

    The kind of information we are after is details of hazards, or potential hazards, including

    · Lack of space between kerb and nearby tram track

    · Lack of dropped kerb at likely crossing points for cyclists to help encourage crossing tram tracks at a safe angle

    · Protruding kerbs

    · Poor signing and markings or lack of signs and markings

    · Poor siting of poles and other street furniture

    It would also be useful to have photos to illustrate these and to help us compile a dossier of background information for our visits in which representatives of Ridewise and Sustrans will also be involved. Please also make clear the date of the information (and images) as we realise that some features may anyway be modified over the next few months before both lines are fully up and running.

    Please send any information to me at Hugh.McClintock@ntlworld.com

    Many thanks for any help you can give. We will also soon be emailing this appeal for help to all Pedals members for whom we have valid email addresses.

    Hugh

    Posted 9 years ago #
  14. Harts Cyclery
    Member

    Good article in the Hoostman today:

    http://www.scotsman.com/news/transport/cyclists-to-sue-edinburgh-over-tramline-accidents-1-3669916

    With this little gem, basically what I and other have been calling for to stop the pressure of cars making people make rash manoeuvres over the lines.

    "Prior to the tramlines being laid, in a report commissioned by the council’s arms-length company behind the project, Tie, Dutch experts Goudappel Coffeng suggested a “dedicated bi-directional cycle lane”, which would keep cyclists away from the trams."

    Posted 9 years ago #
  15. chdot
    Admin

    WARNING

    Contains artist's impression and casual pedestrians.

    http://www.edinburghnews.scotsman.com/news/transport/first-glimpse-of-200m-haymarket-development-1-3679312

    Posted 9 years ago #
  16. kaputnik
    Moderator

    Even for Edinburgh that's bad. Like, really, really bad.

    It's a building that should be sympathetic to a Georgian world heritage site*, not a slice of low-quality architectural cake. That site has always been low rise, at what point did someone decide 9 stories was suddenly suitable?

    * the Caledonian Yards site is not in the WHZ, but the buildings on the opposite sides of the road are.

    Posted 9 years ago #
  17. chdot
    Admin

    "at what point did someone decide 9 stories was suddenly suitable?"

    It's ok was 'going to be' 14...

    Posted 9 years ago #
  18. steveo
    Member

    Where is this going? The wasteland cum carpark above Haymarket? 9 stories on a site which is already 10m above street level, thats going to be a very obvious carbuncle. Also that "artist impression" seems to have demolished the pub on the corner and built over Dalry road...

    Posted 9 years ago #
  19. chdot
    Admin

    That's Dalry Road looking east.

    Development DRd/Morrison St corner.

    Posted 9 years ago #
  20. Stickman
    Member

    Will this be the tallest building in Central Edinburgh?

    Posted 9 years ago #
  21. steveo
    Member

    So are they bringing it down to street level?

    Posted 9 years ago #
  22. kaputnik
    Moderator

    Aye something like that. The site wasn't built up into a railway coal yard until sometime in the mid-1860s-to-early-1870s. Prior to that, when Morrison Street was known as Jamaica Street (as far as Dewar Place), it looks to have been pleasantly landscaped enclosures, part of the Dalry Estate of one James Walker esq of Dalry House. A customs house and weighing machine was later built on the corner (on the current pavement profile) when Haymarket Station was built over the previous site of it.

    Posted 9 years ago #
  23. steveo
    Member

    The site wasn't built up into a railway coal yard

    Ah so that's what it was! Seems a little high up for the railway lines. But fine for the west approach...

    Posted 9 years ago #
  24. kaputnik
    Moderator

    Seems a little high up for the railway lines.

    For Haymarket perhaps, but it was the Caledonian's yard, accessed off the Caley Mainline (now the West Approach)

    Posted 9 years ago #
  25. chdot
    Admin

    "off the Caley Mainline"

    Which went to Princes Street Station (by Caley Hotel - name no co-incidence).

    Posted 9 years ago #
  26. steveo
    Member

    Yeah I just realised that after I finished typing.

    /brainfart.

    I take it the Caley Line terminated at the (now) Caledonian Hotel.

    Posted 9 years ago #
  27. kaputnik
    Moderator

    It split where Morrison Link road now joins WAR. the right fork went to Lothian Road goods and parcel station (now under Sheraton / Festival Square / Clydesdale Plaza.) The left fork terminated in the station behind the hotel. This link probably explains it best;

    http://maps.nls.uk/geo/explore/#zoom=17&lat=55.94734&lon=-3.20995&layers=73

    Posted 9 years ago #
  28. chdot
    Admin

  29. steveo
    Member

    Cheers guys, I kind of forget just how much of the city was occupied by the railway in the last century and only recently developed or still undeveloped as the ex-car park is. Always seems strange that its taken so long to be built on.

    Posted 9 years ago #
  30. fimm
    Member

    Note all the tram lines on that old map!!
    (What we didn't have then, of course, was thousands of cars...)

    Posted 9 years ago #

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