@stickman it does make more sense in the flesh... (or should that be tarmac...?)
@Coxy I agree.
@winpig thank you for the photo, I did take one but never managed to upload it anywhere useful...
CityCyclingEdinburgh Forum » Infrastructure
Road layout changes in the west end at Ryans bar? (Also Haymarket)
(764 posts)-
Posted 11 years ago #
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Edinburgh's Hackney-cabbists are well known the world over for their to-the-letter observance of the Highway Code, particularly the section around ASLs, so I'm sure it will all be just fine.
That's the sort of wishful thinking employed by whichever geniuses came up with this idea.
Posted 11 years ago # -
Spokes seem to be getting miffed over on Twitter. Did they supply the idea to Trambles Ltd or something?
Posted 11 years ago # -
Well we are being critical of an attempt to help?
Posted 11 years ago # -
And well we should, when "attempts to help" are quite probably more risky than doing nothing at all.
I think it is quite indicative of the near total lack of understanding by the Trambles Initiatives Edinburgh project of how bicycles behave and also how they interact withother forms of wheeled transport.
Posted 11 years ago # -
I am not saying we are wrong, just putting forward a possible reason for people getting miffed on twitter?
Posted 11 years ago # -
@wingpig I think Spokes point of view is that because it would be impossible given the decided upon road/rails layouts to try and better integrate bicycles around them then that sort of lets Trambles off the hook for supplying nonsenfrastructure.
Posted 11 years ago # -
"
Spokes CycleCampaign (@SpokesLothian)
14/10/2013 14:02
@St_Matthiesen @wingpig @SRDorman @CyclingEdin @cocteautriplets @WisoB The idea is to give a less bad angle when #cycling across #tramlines"
https://twitter.com/spokeslothian/status/389738099317542912
(Plus responses...)
Posted 11 years ago # -
TBH I think the safest way to negotiate that tramline crossing if you are going down Haymarket Yards will be to cycle through the tram stop.
I've always liked the idea of the trams but it is hugely disappointing when you see how little thought they have given to providing for cyclists.Posted 11 years ago # -
Totally off topic but great story on BBC News Internet for Glasgow Scotland. Polis hire van from Mitchell's Self Drive (where people come first and come back again). Appear to shift large amount of weed. (Described by news as Police Production). Appears to have affected their memories. They leave numerous bags of the production in the back of the van. The van driver notices this the instant he gets into the cab as he can SMELL it. They contact the polis who indeed Have to Come Back Again, rehire the van, same van please, the one with the scent of sensemelia please, to return the production.
Nice story to cheer us on our way
Posted 11 years ago # -
/back on topic/
Well that was interesting.....
Firstly, when I was waiting at the lights at the end of Morrison St a car came from Dalry Road and then proceeded up Morrison Street. They obviously still expected the diversions to be in place. Took them until past the Spider's Web to realise.
I'll echo others' comments about crossing the tramlines outside the station. Didn't use the taxi rank/cycle lane and the crossing angles are pretty unpleasant. I'm glad it wasn't too busy behind. I'm not sure that the cycle lane looks like much of an improvement, but will give it a go tomorrow.
Torphichen St approach is definitely better, if that means anything.
Also agree with earlier comment that there are likely to be some falls around this junction.
Posted 11 years ago # -
Here we go:
Taxi "T20" has passengers. The driver was fully in the ASL when I stopped and started getting my camera out, and then drove forward out of the ASL as you see here. I don't know what the non-taxi car was doing, but as a result the access to the ASL is completely blocked.
"Little Red" taxi is still waiting for a fare. The driver pulled forward into the ASL once "T20" had gone.
My guess is that very few cyclists will use the ASL because it will always have taxis in it & a taxi driver is the last person you want at your tail while you negotiate tram tracks...
(Yes, this is an "all cyclists jump red lights" stereotype.)
Posted 11 years ago # -
Having cycled it now, you can definitely see the point of the madness. I didn't take the taxi rank detour* and had to kind of aim for the temporary barrier, and then swing out to get my angle. I'm not sure that there is a decent angle round that bend otherwise, especially when that temporary barrier is just trams.
*Well I almost did because of the poor taxi driver to my right who wanted to go in there and seemed to think I should do the same by driving his taxi at me to help me decide, before pulling back and going in behind me, twat!
Posted 11 years ago # -
I sat in this ASL outside Haymarket Station on Saturday, and was disappointed to see I wasn't allowed to turn right out of it back towards Princes Street. Yes, I know I could have got off and walked, but I was curious as to the layout of the roads.
Anyway, there was a taxi in the ASL, and he eventually got fed up waiting and drove off through the red light ... turning right!
The next taxi inched forward until he filled the ASL, but at least he waited until the green light to go. However, I was in the right hand lane, and so gave way to him, let him undertake, and then continued along down Haymarket Yards to see the tram rails ... scary stuff.
The compressor and vans were blocking the access to the cycle path, as mentioned here too.
Posted 11 years ago # -
I didn't know you aren't allowed to U-turn out of the taxi rank, as both the taxis I saw on Saturday were doing this manoeuvre.
Perhaps a little filming needed one day.
Posted 11 years ago # -
Can I ask what happens in other cities where trams, bikes, and cars interact?
Serious question, does it cause as many problems as we anticipate? I can't comment as I have not cycled in a 'trammed up' city.
Posted 11 years ago # -
According to the tweets, it works in European cities because;
A/ they generally have good cycling infrastructure to begin with
B/ they don't have the hordes of badly driven motor vehicles given carte blanche to ignore road markings and try and bully cyclists off their safe line and into trouble
C/ they don't have the same chumps as Edinburgh Trams trying to "design" the cycling "infrastructure"Posted 11 years ago # -
@k
appreciate the response is partly tongue in cheek but my question was serious - I have been in a few cities in europe where trams have clearly co-existed with cycles 'on street' - i.e. no 'good cycling infrastructure'.
So, in Prague or Amsterdam (not suggesting the infra is poor!) is there a concern over angles of attack for crossing the tramlines where they coexist with cars and bikes - or do they just get on with it?
Posted 11 years ago # -
I expect they've designed the interactions of the two modes rather than building a tram
networkline and expecting cyclists to survive TIE's dangerous design decisions.Posted 11 years ago # -
steveo, sorry but thats just not the case, and while some infra for trams elsewhere may be designed that way - lots quite simply are not, there are many junctions in other cities where - just like here - the tramlines have been placed at a certain angle on the road and the other modes simply have to deal with it.
If anyone thinks I am making it up, give it a google.
Posted 11 years ago # -
Other countries don't go in for marked lanes to the same extent, which means that the more forgiving motor vehicle operators are less likely to try to squeeze cyclists out of a lane when the cyclists are taking their time going over a junction with some tramlines at their own unharassed pace following a conveniently wide-radius course.
Posted 11 years ago # -
@Nelly the honest answer is I haven't been to enough Tram-bearing cities to form a Judgement. Central Manchester is largely a grid and most angles seemed to be right anyway.
It doesn't need to be complicated;
Twisty bike lane by Payton Chung, on FlickrThe above image came from this (substantial) document;
BICYCLE INTERACTIONS AND STREETCARS:
Lessons Learned and RecommendationsThis document was commissioned by (or for) Portland's Streetcar (aka Tram) system following its implementation. Main conclusions were;
* Streetcar tracks and platforms should be center-running or left-running [remember this is US, so actually means outside lane] wherever possible.
* Bicycle facilities should be separated from streetcar tracks as much as possible by:
a. Developing a parallel, excellent bicycle facility.
b. Creating high-quality cycle tracks or bicycle lanesbadjacent to streetcar tracks.
c. Offering 90 degree track crossings whenever possible, by positioning the bike lane or cycle track to cross at 90 degrees (see photo on page 9); signing and/or marking the best angle for tuning (see photo, above) and creating “Melbourne left turn” opportunities (see page 15).
* Develop a policy framework for future bicycle and streetcar integration, including:
a. Developing policies related to bicycle integration in streetcar planning processes.
b. Developing innovative design guidelines for integrated streetcar and bicycle facilities.
c. Developing performance measures to evaluate safety.
* Create supporting programs for education and wayfinding.Spokes' page on it all is here;
http://www.spokes.org.uk/wordpress/documents/public-transport/tram/
Posted 11 years ago # -
the tramlines have been placed at a certain angle on the road and the other modes simply have to deal with it
Don't underestimate the power of the other modes dealing with it better. Part of the problem here is impatient driving, and cyclists feeling harassed. Crossing tram lines at any angle is easier if you can go more slowly knowing that the driver behind isn't going to try and force their way past.
Cycling in Amsterdam I can't really remember crossing tramlines at anything other than a steep angle, though appreciate we didn't cycle the entire city. Don't have any recollection of crossing tramlines in Copenhagen... Does it have trams? There are a couple of metro lines, but I think they're all underground or raised (moving from one to t'other).
Posted 11 years ago # -
OK, so that is exactly where I am trying to go with this - we need to stop tweeting about the 'design of the tram tracks' because they are frankly no different to other places.
But the crucial difference is that we allow cars / taxis / trucks etc carte blanche to badger and bully cyclists into making mistakes and having accidents.
Its important that when we complain about infra that we are clear about where the problem lies - too much chatter about 'the trams' actually masks the real issue - which is that the cycling infra on almost all Edinburgh streets is garbage and potentially dangerous - its not the tram planners fault, and won't change until some key routes are closed wholesale to motorised traffic.
To bang an old drum - George St would be a start.
Posted 11 years ago # -
Two things.
There 'are' things that can be done to tracks to make them safer to cross which, if it's admitted that drivers in this country harass and harry, would actually make things safer, with such options not so necessary in other countries where road users behave. Which means that IS an issue with the tram tracks.
Second up, the layout of the road can make things better and worse even where the crossing angle isn't ideal. I other countries, as wingpig points out, a lot of the time there aren't defined lanes, which doesn't corral road users into specific lines of attack, doesnt force cyclists into lines that are shallower than they should be, or doesn't give drivers an expectation of where a cyclists should or shouldn't be. Those last issues most definitely being about the infrastructure put in place specifically around the trams tracks.
Posted 11 years ago # -
its not the tram planners fault
To be [un?]fair to them, it was they who massively b*llsed up the NCN route up Dublin Street at Queen Street then into St Andrew Square.
It is they who paint a lane across the tracks at the Mound that is substantially less than their own minimum recommended crossing angle.
It is also they who have replaced single stage, segregated crossings with two-phase toucans with an overly narrow central reservoir.
It's also them that did this;
And this;
And lastly this;
So I'm not entirely sure it's just an issue of vehicle conflict. I think it works both ways. With only one of them (bad design / oppressive traffic) we might cope, but coupled together it's just asking for trouble and the results will be worse than the sum of the parts and we all know who it is that will come off worst.
If it's not possible to safely or financially create cycling infrastructure around the line, whacking some paint on the road and then telling people in official literature to do something different to try and claim that cyclists have been considered in the design is not the answer. It's a lot worse. And I'm sure every time a cyclists follows some of those paint lines, comes a cropper in the dark and the rain then the council is opening themselves up to a minefield of litigation for providing dangerous / substandard road markings.
Posted 11 years ago # -
Not easy on a non f2f conv, and you both might think I am being obtuse - I dont think we are at odds over much here, but are getting to the crux of it.
Bikes and trams can and do interact in other cities, even where road layout is not all right angles (manchester) we agree on that?
OK, so in your last photo which is a great example - is it the tram people, or the CEC who decide where the painted bike lane goes?
I would never (and will never) cycle at that angle - so who made the decision? My assumption is that its CEC roads rather than the tram project mgrs?
I don't think its the tramco who should get it in the neck for this - its our council.
K, that american twisty bike lane appears to push bikes right in front of traffic flow? Great for the angle, but there is a potentialy dangerous unintended consequence there too - unless I am missing something?
Posted 11 years ago # -
So even some signs along the lines of "drivers allow cyclists space to cross tram tracks safely" might be a little better than nothing? What do we reckon the chances of getting those are? (Not high, IMHO...)
Posted 11 years ago # -
I think there was a bicycle+skidding sign outside the new hotel for eastbound traffic.
One noticeable thing going west across it was that the sea of freshly-laid white road markings are mich more visible than the tracks themselves, unless that was just the way I was seeing it when inspecting it for hazardry.Posted 11 years ago # -
I think signs have a chance,there are plenty Cyclists Dismount signs for example, so should not be too hard to get some Give The Bike Some Space signs?
Posted 11 years ago #
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