Haven't been following this because it's not on my route... but it's not far from my route either - en route now!
CityCyclingEdinburgh Forum » Infrastructure
Road layout changes in the west end at Ryans bar? (Also Haymarket)
(764 posts)-
Posted 11 years ago #
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Make sure you get to the root of the problem, Dave.
Posted 11 years ago # -
It's amusingly horrendous. Even with prior warning I found it amazingly difficult.
There are a few people here taking a look. Citizen media...
Posted 11 years ago # -
To be fair, no taxig were blocking the entrance to the jug handle* when I went through tonight.
It was being blocked by a very large cleaning vehicle instead.
*can we please find a better name for it than this!
Posted 11 years ago # -
@ Stickman
If we can get Royal consent..
The Duke of Rothesay Cycleway?
Something about its shape just reminds me of him, and the whole planning of it would rival his father's faux pas ;-)
Posted 11 years ago # -
I made it as far as the 3rd page of comments before I could take no more lunacy or downright moronic behaviour. I would love to send the usual idiots on there flying down to Haymarket on a bike and see how they like it, but I guess most of them would take several hours just trying to work out where the ignition is...
Posted 11 years ago # -
Having watched it for about half an hour last night, I wouldn't bet against there being a death in fairly short order.
I found it pretty difficult to ride, and though I say so myself, I spend quite a lot of time on bikes. Definitely Glentress levels of difficulty in hopping your wheels over the rails with traffic speeding past your elbow.
The antics of the taxi drivers is ridiculous. One of them double parked in cycle lane inside the "jug" for over ten minutes before driving off through two red lights. Half of the rest of the time the approach lane was obstructed by taxis illegally stopping on the road, making it even more rediculously hard.
The taxi bay needs full time camera enforcement IMO. That's the only real way to stop them illegally obstructing the road.
Posted 11 years ago # -
Yesteday evening the ASL contained a taxi and a white van, just for variation.
This morning there were no taxis at all, nor anything else, anywhere in the taxi rack/"jug handle" area.
The Big Issue seller at Haymarket (with whom I chat with briefly while I buy a Big Issue from him most weeks) told me this morning that he had come off his bike on the tram tracks - not at Haymarket but somewhere near the Big Issue office (I'm afraid I don't know where that is). "Just" a scraped hand and I'm afraid I didn't get a chance to ask about his bike as he spotted another potential customer.
I should report it on his behalf, I think.
Posted 11 years ago # -
A couple of pics that illustrate the superhuman difficulty of crossing the rails at 90 degrees:
Note that most of the time I was there, taxis filled in the area to the left of the lines, so regardless of whether you want to use the "jug" or not, you must hop over the lines while riding parallel with them.
See for example:
The jug itself had an illegally parked cab in there for around ten minutes, before it finally drove off through the red lights:
Posted 11 years ago # -
BI office - 31 Queensferry Street - so presumably Princes Street.
Posted 11 years ago # -
I had to take the bus today, so got off a few stops early to look at this more closely and to plan my next line of attack when I'm back on the bike. It's just repeating all of the above - there is no safe line if you don't use the jug handle. And this morning there were taxis backed out beyond Ryries, making entry to the jug even more hazardous than staying on the main road.
OK, I've done my ranting for today. I want to be more productive, so can the more "experienced" campaigners advise what practical steps can be taken? Write to councillors/MSPs? Is there any point? Or would a "weight of numbers" campaign have any impact?
I want to try to do something constructive before our worst predictions about this junction come true.
Posted 11 years ago # -
"I want to be more productive, so can the more "experienced" campaigners advise what practical steps can be taken? Write to councillors/MSPs? Is there any point? Or would a "weight of numbers" campaign have any impact?"
It's hard to know what could be done.
The tracks are not going to be moved any time soon.
The taxi rank isn't going to be closed.
Taxis will (mostly) stop blocking the track and the entrance to the bay when the trams run - though, assuming they run to time, it will be easy to predict when to get out of the way (by blocking the 'bike lane' part).
Tram tracks are another argument for 20mph - that would be worth emails to councillors.
Most cyclists won't use the 'jug handle' - especially if they have to wait for the lights to change.
Lights that changed when a bike approached would be nice...
Posted 11 years ago # -
I think one obvious step is for a flangeway filler (no laughing at the back there) to be applied to the tracks at Haymarket. These rubber inserts "fill" the gaps in the track, deflecting under the weight of a passing tram but not a cyclist. I know they are liable to degredation due to weather and wear - but that isn't really our concern and their replacement every now and again would be a microscopic cost compared to the tram capital and revenue budget.
Posted 11 years ago # -
Going to have a gander at lunchtime today. It just seems worse and worse the more I see pictures and videos of it. As chdot says, difficult to see what they can do.
20mph zone would be a start; taxis queuing back should be a non-issue when the trams run (to be frank, the taxi rank they put in is ridiculously short for a major transport hub); there should be a camera to enforce the ASL and red light; maybe even an advanced cycle light; and even better would be making the left hand lane a bus lane so that for the most part you at least won't have general traffic at your elbow as you skip the tracks.
Posted 11 years ago # -
I wonder if some taxi drivers are taking the view that the traffic lights at the ASL are not applicable until the trams are actually running?
The size of the taxi rank seems to be totally inadequate given the projected increase in passenger levels at the station.
You'd think a better solution could have been engineered into the new Station works.
I still think that they should build over the rails to Dalry road and open up a large plaza linking the two streets - that would provide lots more space.
Nice to see that the pavement between Ryries and Haymarket has been made wider though.
Posted 11 years ago # -
"Nice to see that the pavement between Ryries and Haymarket has been made wider though."
But not the bit that matters!
Posted 11 years ago # -
"I think one obvious step is for a flangeway filler"
That would certainly be an improvement.
Looking at my photos I'm not sure if the mastic between the tarmac and the rails is in place.
Perhaps WC can check.
Posted 11 years ago # -
Accepting that the tram can't be moved and they're unlikely to stomach the cost and embarrasment of digging things up (again), some practical steps to take would be;
- Rigorous enforcemnt of the double yellows and ASL over a period of time. Remember when the taxis got all upset when the police ticketed them for lining up on Waverley bridge on the double yellows to wait for entry into the station? Well it shows that a/ the police can be sometimes bothered to act and b/ it works.
- If the above doesn't work, either a marshall system (at the expense of the taxi companies) or camera enforcement
- a red tarmacced strip indicating the desirable path into the "jug", removing the dotted white line for cyclists that make it appear to be a cycle entrance into the station.
- institute a "no overtaking" zone through Haymarket junction around all tram lines
- institute a 20 zone through Haymarket, so that in the (unfortunately likely) event that a cyclist comes down, stopping distances for following traffic will be reduced
- cyclist "advance go" lights at all junctions approaching the rails, to give a few seconds breathing space to maneouver and cross the rails with the neccessary space and at the neccessary speed.
- "rail flanges" as described by Morningsider. They exist. Other cities use them. Not so many other cities try and force cyclists across rails at angles of 5 or 10 degrees off of paralell.All this should have been thought about in advance. Someone needs a massive b****cking about this, in my best Chipwrapper commentator voice "HEADS MUST ROLL!"
And relax...
Posted 11 years ago # -
"Perhaps WC can check."
Yip, and new lens on the camera to play with, so will be snapping away. Probably just buy a coffee and watch the carnage unfold.
We really need to get Jim Orr and the like to cycle through here.
Posted 11 years ago # -
"- a red tarmacced strip indicating the desirable path into the "jug", removing the dotted white line for cyclists that make it appear to be a cycle entrance into the station."
My only issue with this is that it perhaps creates an expectation that cyclist should be using the jug handle, and so some drivers may not give cyclists who are going straight on any space at all, with the convenient excuse/blame shift afterwards of, "Well I expected him to go where the cyclists are supposed to, it's his own fault"
Posted 11 years ago # -
Well I expected him to go where the cyclists are supposed to, it's his own fault"
Hence no overtake zone until after the tracks have turned off down into Haymarket Yards.
Also, if it really is a no U-turn out of the station, then a small central reservation or some bollards should be constructed to physically prevent this.
Posted 11 years ago # -
"Also, if it really is a no U-turn out of the station, then a small central reservation or some bollards should be constructed to physically prevent this."
Indeed, otherwise it will happen that a taxi will u-turn out in front of a cyclist who isn't using the jug handle.
Whoever is responsible for all of this, it really is truly abysmal - wondering if it's going to appear better or worse when I see it for myself!
Posted 11 years ago # -
Would anyone be up for a group letter, highlighting the risk, suggesting a few obvious non-reconstructive improvements and signed en masse as concerned citizens?
Could sign a "real" letter at next PY and deliver it to the council.
Posted 11 years ago # -
Yep, good idea.
Posted 11 years ago # -
I think rail flanges would be a positive step, but from my experience of cycling round tram tracks I've found the biggest risk is slipping on the track, as opposed to getting stuck in it.
Posted 11 years ago # -
Most of the taxis I saw u-turned from the entrance of the jug (i.e. they stopped on / to the left of the rails, let down, then u-turned without ever actually entering the jug).
They could make it a no right turn into the taxi rank, and build a central reservation?
One simple thing that could be done is to rework the lanes since the right-turning traffic out of Morrison St means that there's effectively only one lane of traffic going past Haymarket as it is - why not make that literally true by setting up one lane and a giant cycle (+tram) lane?
Posted 11 years ago # -
"I've found the biggest risk is slipping on the track"
I think the 'rubber' insert would improve that too as it should give tyres a bit of grip at moment of initial instability.
Posted 11 years ago # -
"why not make that literally true by setting up one lane and a giant cycle (+tram) lane?"
+1
Posted 11 years ago # -
WC When you are down there can you also check if a cyclist who uses the jug handle and doesn't have to stop can safely move back into traffic. Only done the route once so far but the red and white barriers after the handle make it look a rather sharpish turn back onto the road.
Posted 11 years ago # -
The jughandle is a dead end IMO - it seems to take a couple of minutes to go green, which means nobody in their right mind will use it more than once.
Posted 11 years ago #
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