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Access/layout 'possibilities' at Haymarket

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  1. chdot
    Admin

    This has been discussed a bit at the 'people falling off by the taxi rank' thread, but in view of Council's new proposals to 'reduce the problem' a new thread is desirable.

    Especially because of this VERY interesting contribution from Ewan Jeffrey who 'looks after' railway issues for Spokes.

    "
    Network Rail, Scotrail and Transport Scotland continually cite that it is impossible to use Distillery Lane because it is in highly fragmented ownership, thereby making Compulsory Purchase difficult. I think that the real reason for their reluctance is Revenue Control.

    However, rather than using Distillery Lane, it would be perfectly straightforward to achieve access from the south by using the Dalry Road over-bridge, either by a major decking over (see below), by a cantilevered walkway behind Ryrie's Bar. (There will be new staircases installed shortly from the Dalry Road bridge down to platforms 2,3 and 4 as part of the current scheme, but these will be Emergency Exits only.)

    The current rebuild is much more modest than it could have been, which is down to lack of imagination by Scotrail which was resposible initially . When responsibility was passed to Network Rail it was made a bit more ambitious, but is still too modest. Although much wider that the existing over-bridge, I think that it wont be long before they wished that it had been made even wider.

    The opportunity could have been taken to deck over the tracks right up to the Dalry Road Bridge - thereby creating an enormous circulation area. This would have transformed the area and solved at a stroke all the current space constraints for pedestrian circulation, taxi ranks and bike parking.

    It was reported at last weeks Scotrail Cycle Forum that the ownership of the pavement space in front of the historic station building is to be passed from Network rail to CEC. This presumably also passes cost responsibility thereon from NR to CEC and might be a significant setback to getting improved cycle parking provision, as that's where the bike parking is. Sustrans are leading the discussions on this with NR/CEC about how there might be a purpose designed shelter in the space between Starbucks and the historic (listed) building, but I cant see that that will be quick. I suggested to the TS representatives at the Forum that the old pedestrian bridge could be saved from demolition and reused as covered bike parking and this was noted, but I'm not at all confident that that will be taken up. I suspect that the enlarged station will open in December with just the existing small number of Sheffield racks moved back against the wall.

    Ewan Jeffrey

    "

    Posted 10 years ago #
  2. Tulyar
    Member

    Ewan, with his knowledge of investment issues might well have some idea of the commercial value of an area for retail and residential use in the air space over the tracks and the north side of Dalry Road between Distillery Lane and Ryries Bar.

    There would naturally need to be some cut-through slots for the secondary egress routes from platforms on to Dalry Road - potentially very useful for managing queues and passenger flows (1-way circulation) when a big match is on at Tynecastle or Murrayfield.and a public space at street level with taxi and cycle facilities would still be available.

    If NR feels they don't have the commercial competence to offer this to the marketplace for Edinburgh's corporate investors, then maybe CCE has the resources to offer a scheme, costings and projections to show what is possible, and given that the finest incentive to deliver folds up and goes in the wallet, our happy and eclectic band (which Spokes skilfully taps in to for the services each individual feels able to give occasionally) might even offer to assemble the package and project management (in return perhaps for a donation to Spokes and a legacy cycle 'hub' as part of the package - rather like Sustrans often ask for a public artwork rather than cash).

    There is a vacuum in the lack of engagement to deliver this facility so filling it might drive the solution forwards?

    Surely if Distillery Lane was adopted this element of the issue would be resolved?

    Posted 10 years ago #
  3. Coxy
    Member

    Amsterdam Central Station - bike parking:

    Posted 10 years ago #
  4. fimm
    Member

    I was thinking about this - isn't there a bit of a hierarchy of things that might be done, from "short term ideas to try and make the area a bit less dangerous" through to ideas that, respectfully, are not going to happen tomorrow...

    So, under the short term ideas I'd like to put up the following to be shot at:
    1) signs on all approaches "please allow cyclists time and space to negotiate tram tracks safely"
    2) vigorous enforcement of the taxi rank until the taxi drivers realise that they really, really mean it (coupled with some taxi waiting space at the bottom of Dalry Road, carrot and stick style)

    Slightly longer term:
    3) sort out all the issues with the tracks that Tulyar keeps talking about (something to do with the height of the rails?)
    4) the springy stuff around the tracks also mentioned by Tulyar

    Proper long-term requiring cash and time:
    5) someone suggested a fully segregated lane on the north side of the street
    6) covering over the platforms as described above (which sadly might make the inside of the station less pleasant, though I suppose not really, as not many people go down that end, all the waiting is done further up).

    Posted 10 years ago #
  5. Focus
    Member

    "Distillery Lane ... is in highly fragmented ownership"

    Good grief, just how many people own it? :-o

    "The opportunity could have been taken to deck over the tracks right up to the Dalry Road Bridge ... This would have ... solved ... all the current space constraints for pedestrian circulation, taxi ranks and bike parking."

    As I said previously. And I'm sure I'm just one of many who saw that as the answer. Too bad the people with the planning power and budget didn't see the sense in it.

    Posted 10 years ago #
  6. twq
    Member

    Decking over the tracks would be brilliant, and solve so many space issues. Need to look to Berlin and how they manage with limited space.

    Posted 10 years ago #
  7. SRD
    Moderator

    I just sent an email to various people saying 'how did this ever get planning permission if it has inadequate access for taxis, pedestrians, cyclists and no disabled drop-off'?

    Answer - it didn't . It was part of 'EGIP'.

    Silly me.

    Posted 10 years ago #
  8. EddieD
    Member

    "Distillery Lane ... is in highly fragmented ownership"

    Good grief, just how many people own it? :-o

    I think all the people who own property in the block of flats it leads to. There was a similar "private road" in Juniper green that was a painful experience to drive over, because they all owned it, and could never agree to spend the money to surface it.

    Posted 10 years ago #
  9. kaputnik
    Moderator

    signs on all approaches "please allow cyclists time and space to negotiate tram tracks safely"

    I think a no overtaking zone covering the whole junction area would be even better. It's simple, unequivocal, unambiguous and easy to enforce under existing laws.

    Posted 10 years ago #
  10. DaveC
    Member

    So in other words EGIP can build what ever they want? Why is this? I can't build what I want on my land.

    Posted 10 years ago #
  11. Tulyar
    Member

    NB most adopted roads sit on land which is within the title of the frontagers, and in my case the title extends the full width of the road, the full width of the pleasure gardens, and 7'6" of the 15'0" lane on the far side of the pleasure gardens. Through its adoption the road has public access and the pleasure gardens and lane are for common and patent use of the specified owners of abutting titles. I have toyed with the idea of following the lead of SMG and the University of Glasgow and claiming back land within the boundaries of the title where the road is no longer required as a means of passing between 2 places (in University Gardens the road is adopted but parking spaces are owned and managed by the University). Elsewhere the end of Park Drive, where the University owns all the buildings is no longer a route between 2 places, and so it is now closed off as a car park for the old 'dough school' buildings. SMG has privatised the North end of Renfield Street, and several smaller lanes in the area.

    Posted 10 years ago #
  12. PS
    Member

    I think a no overtaking zone covering the whole junction area would be even better. It's simple, unequivocal, unambiguous and easy to enforce under existing laws

    As long as drivers realised that "no overtaking" means they should not pass cyclists as well... I somehow doubt that a good proportion of them will not comprehend that they need to show respect to all road users.

    Posted 10 years ago #
  13. cb
    Member

    Decking over the tracks would also give great potential for linking a walking/cycling route through to Morrison Crescent, by moving the existing Dalry Road ped crossing a few metres further south and running a ramp up to the big car park/wasteland.

    Posted 10 years ago #
  14. fimm
    Member

    No overtaking is a better idea - though do no overtaking signs apply to overtaking cyclists?

    Would making the area a 20mph zone help too? I bet not many people actually get over 20 anyway because of all the lights and things, but it might discourage the agressive acceleration away from the lights that is one the the things that makes the area so intimidating.

    Posted 10 years ago #
  15. PS
    Member

    IIRC, my advanced driving instructor told me that no overtaking (in the case of continuous white lines in the middle of the road, at least) means that you should not overtake cyclists, or any other vehicle for that matter, that are travelling at 10mph or more. Obviously, 99.9% of motorists are either unaware of this or could not care less. Or both.

    Posted 10 years ago #
  16. skotl
    Member

    In Italy they have signs showing a black car on the right (inside lane) and a red truck to its left (overtaking lane). Shows that trucks are not allowed to overtake cars on that stretch of road.

    So, perhaps a sign with a black bike on the left and red car on the right? Don't know if this needs some statute / highway code approval, or whether councils can simply put up their own design of signs?

    Posted 10 years ago #
  17. fimm
    Member

    @PS I agree about the double white line rules. Annoyingly, I couldn't find anything on the Highway Code website about overtaking... it must be there somewhere!

    Posted 10 years ago #
  18. kaputnik
    Moderator

    The Penicuik Road through Milton Bridge has a stupid design with an advisory cycle lane on the left, with wide central islands fairly regularly. Each has a large yellow sign that says "Caution, do not overtake pedal cyclists through islands", which feels very retrospective. I imagine they've come up with the arrangement on paper, built the squashpoints in then had to backtrack after realising danger it poses to cyclists in the lane.

    Posted 10 years ago #
  19. Cyclingmollie
    Member

    Perhaps the double-yellow approach to the taxi rank will be better policed once the trams are running.

    Posted 10 years ago #
  20. Focus
    Member

    @ kaputnik

    The section of road past the racecourse in Musselburgh has no overtaking at the pedestrian islands and it has always worked when I've ridden along there.

    Posted 10 years ago #
  21. Focus
    Member

    @ fimm

    "@PS I agree about the double white line rules. Annoyingly, I couldn't find anything on the Highway Code website about overtaking... it must be there somewhere! "

    Highway Code: Double White Lines

    "129

    Double white lines where the line nearest you is solid. This means you MUST NOT cross or straddle it unless it is safe and you need to enter adjoining premises or a side road. You may cross the line if necessary, provided the road is clear, to pass a stationary vehicle, or overtake a pedal cycle, horse or road maintenance vehicle, if they are travelling at 10 mph (16 km/h) or less.
    Laws RTA 1988 sect 36 & TSRGD regs 10 & 26
    "

    Funny that, any time I've been passed along a double white section, I can guarantee I was doing at least 50% above that, and usually 100% or more.

    Posted 10 years ago #
  22. wingpig
    Member

    As with the Leith Walk stuff I suspect there's some SPECIAL SECRET 'traffic modelling' data justifying the multiplicity of lanes in various directions at the expense of the safety of the non-motorised. Wonder if it would be possible to get to see this.

    For fixing what's already there, it'd be relatively simple to erect a pole next to the end of the rank with some proximity-detecting visual device on it in order to determine when a taxi has stopped in such a position as to encroach upon the clearly-marked tram sweeping-path. A motorised arm atop the pole could then tap on the cab's roof increasingly urgently until it shifted. I suspect when trams start moving that the jug-handle will just turn into a two-lane taxi rank/drop-off zone.

    Posted 10 years ago #
  23. Cyclingmollie
    Member

    @wingpig, let me Google that for an alternative possible future...

    Posted 10 years ago #
  24. fimm
    Member

    Yeah, I know about the double white line stuff. But, if a cyclist is going at less than 10 mph one may overtake them even on double whites*, and I guess most cyclists pulling away from lights will come into this category (also my preference with the tram tracks is to take them slowly, and I don't suppose I'm unusual in this).

    What (I assume) someone upthread was suggesting was a ban on overtaking cyclists (or anything else) full stop, end of, in that section of road. That (again, I assume) would require the signs with the black car and the red car, and that, and the laws surrounding those signs, was what I was failing to find in the Highway Code.

    *Yes, on my road bike I get overtaken at well over this, too.

    Posted 10 years ago #
  25. Morningsider
    Member

    If Distillery Lane meets the legal definition of a road, then the fact it is in private ownership makes no difference. A road is simply a "way (other than a waterway) over which there is a public right of passage" - a public road is "a road which a roads authority has a duty to maintain" and a private road is "any road other than a public road" - all definitions Section 151 of the Roads (Scotland) Act 1984.

    If there is a public right of passage over Distillery Lane then its ownership would make no difference to the provision of an access to Haymarket. Entry into the list of public roads does not change the ownership of the solum of the road, but does place a duty on the roads authority to maintain that road and restricts the rights of the landowners to interfere with the operation of the road. If a public road is ever de-listed then responsibility for maintenance reverts back to the landowners.

    I can see how the new Haymarket has ended up being designed the way it has been. The only people who benefit from an access on Dalry Road are passengers - the only people not involved in the development of the scheme. I am sure the land ownership issue would have been fairly straightforward to sort out (CEC can force adoption of the road under Section 1 of the Roads (Scotland) Act 1984, if they really felt the need). I feel that no-one could really be bothered sorting it out because it didn't fall within their job description.

    Posted 10 years ago #
  26. DrAfternoon
    Member

    I've experienced horridly close high speed passes where the car has been attempting to pass me (doing well over 10mph) without crossing the solid white line, on the A70 in particular.

    Posted 10 years ago #
  27. kaputnik
    Moderator

    I feel that no-one could really be bothered sorting it out because it didn't fall within their job description.

    Couldn't agree more.

    I've experienced horridly close high speed passes where the car has been attempting to pass me (doing well over 10mph) without crossing the solid white line, on the A70 in particular.
    Long Niddry bents bad for this too. Twisting road with no line of sight due to vegetation, double white for long parts of it, yet popular with the "nice run in the country" type drivers who always seem to be in a hurry to get home (rarely in a hurry the other way)

    Posted 10 years ago #
  28. fimm
    Member

    Found it.

    165
    You MUST NOT overtake
    ...
    after a ‘No Overtaking’ sign and until you pass a sign cancelling the restriction.
    Laws RTA 1988 sect 36, TSRGD regs 10, 22, 23 & 24, ZPPPCRGD reg 24

    167
    DO NOT overtake where you might come into conflict with other road users. For example
    ...
    approaching or at a road junction on either side of the road
    ...
    when you would force another road user to swerve or slow down
    ...
    stay behind if you are following a cyclist approaching a roundabout or junction, and you intend to turn left

    Posted 10 years ago #

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