CityCyclingEdinburgh Forum » Debate!

Have pavement cyclists got it right?

(51 posts)
  • Started 10 years ago by Dave
  • Latest reply from Instography

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  1. Instography
    Member

    @Morningsider
    I'm not sure I see the, largely imagined, state of having no access to any non-walking alternative transport mode as the trump card in transport questions. This is the equivalent of the largely mythical example of the cash-poor pensioner who would be forced into penury by the imposition of a properly progressive property tax. I don't see it as a sensible basis for formulating any kind of policy to pick the most extreme counter-example, however unlikely, and use it as a red line.

    "My preference is to argue for proper cycling infrastructure, rather than allowing cyclists to use the pavement."

    Me too. I'm totally in favour of proper cycling infrastructure so that no one had to consider the pavements. But in the meantime, while we're waiting, while I imagine that my children will make it through their entire childhoods with still no option to safely and legally cycle to secondary school, I don't think the pavements are such a bad half-measure. In most places, they're mostly empty and fine for shared use as they are. Certainly easier to adapt to dual use than the roads. Certainly less dangerous (shut-in vulnerable pedestrians not withstanding) than dual use on the current roads.

    Posted 10 years ago #
  2. Dave
    Member

    "My preference is to argue for proper cycling infrastructure, rather than allowing cyclists to use the pavement."

    I can't disagree with arguing for proper infrastructure at all. However, where I was once pretty hardline on vehicular cycling, I pretty much agree with Insto now.

    Even though I, personally, don't need to ride on pavements, I feel unable to criticise those who do. I will, of course, criticise those who ride dangerously wherever they are, which is a separate issue.

    Posted 10 years ago #
  3. Morningsider
    Member

    Insto, Dave - convincing arguments chaps and I agree that the odd pootling cyclist on the pavement is very unlikely to cause any problems. However, my view on this is influenced by a recent tour of cycling infrastructure in Glasgow. Quite a bit of this was shared use pavement - that had been especially widenced for this purpose. These routes accommodate current low levels of cycling and walking together with minimal conflict. However, even our group of six cyclists was enough to overwhelm it. Unless we all kept to an orderly single file at low speed it was clearly unpleasent for any pedestrians we happened to pass and was pretty frustrating cycling - and general chaos when we met cyclists coming the opposite direction.

    I just can't see how most urban pavements could safely accommodate more than the odd cyclist and pedestrians, particularly given our current fairly aggressive cycling culture, which is very different from the low speed, mass participation cycling seen in Copenhagen etc.

    I know the idea of the vulnerable pedestrian trapped at home by evil cyclists might seem a bit Daily Mail - but people I know who work in these areas are absolutley convinced that shared use is a bad thing and I won't jut dismiss their views because it is inconvenient for cyclists.

    I think the obvious solution to this would be a time limited, large scale trial of the idea. Perhaps my concerns are unfounded. Not that this would ever happen though - no politician in Scotland is going to do something for cyclists when the nice people at Guide Dogs for the Blind are against it.

    Posted 10 years ago #
  4. Instography
    Member

    @Morningsider

    I just can't see how most urban pavements could safely accommodate more than the odd cyclist and pedestrians,

    Take a trip to Ghent.

    particularly given our current fairly aggressive cycling culture, which is very different from the low speed, mass participation cycling seen in Copenhagen etc

    To quote my old beardie friend (not Uberuce) "It is not the consciousness of men that determines their being, but, on the contrary, their social being that determines their consciousness". Our cycling culture is aggressive because it exists on the edge of death. People cycle aggressively because the alternative is to be pushed into the gutter or dragged under a vehicle. Change people's cycling experience and you change their attitude. As I once wrote but didn't use, when you put people up against tanks, they dress for war, riding the APCs and jet fighters of cycling instead of the steel shire horses that our continental cousins sedately ride.

    Posted 10 years ago #
  5. sg37409
    Member

    People cycle aggressively because they are impatient, and dont like hold ups. RLJ's. Cyclists momentum is harder won than a car drivers, and you can see the results. Move these guys on to a pavement and it wont go well. In some cases riding on the pavements is fine, in many cities it works well-ish. But if we were to do it here it would end up as a major problem. Already the phone-ins are full of people who were killed to death last week by herds of speeding cyclists. We're just not ready for this as a rule yet.

    Posted 10 years ago #
  6. sallyhinch
    Member

    Shared use pavements are better than nothing for cyclists and worse than nothing for pedestrians so they should really only be used in places where there are very few pedestrians (paths alongside trunk roads are fine, for instance).

    I do think we should explicitly decriminalise children cycling on pavements if there's no reasonable on-road alternative though. Up to around the age of 12, say - it's not as if they aren't demons on those scooters already. Teaching them to use their bells and cycle politely around adults would be a far more useful skill than trying to teach them that holding the lane in front of an impatient parent in an SUV who's left the school run far too late and is now trying to scrape past them at a pinch point is a sensible way to get to school

    Posted 10 years ago #
  7. chdot
    Admin

    "I do think we should explicitly decriminalise children cycling on pavements if there's no reasonable on-road alternative though."

    Well legally they are too young to be criminals so it's already 'ok' - though worth pointing out more often.

    Of course same doesn't apply to accompanying adults (if also on bikes).

    Posted 10 years ago #
  8. "Well legally they are too young to be criminals so it's already 'ok' - though worth pointing out more often."

    Technically anyone 8 years of age or over in Scotland is considered to have criminal responsibility. Though only over 12 will be prosecuted (which seems an odd quirk).

    Posted 10 years ago #
  9. crowriver
    Member

    Though only over 12 will be prosecuted (which seems an odd quirk).

    Possibly to avoid inconsistency with Englandshire, where I believe (though haven't bothered to check) the age of crimial responsiblity is 10? *

    Imagine the uproar if 9 year olds were being sent to prison here and not south of the border...

    * - Wasn't it 14 until recently?

    Posted 10 years ago #
  10. Yeah, 10 in England I think (which presumably just creates another inconsistency in that 11 year old there can be sent daaaaaahn whereas here they can't.

    It's a criminal postcode lottery!

    Posted 10 years ago #
  11. crowriver
    Member

    There appears to have been something of a stooshie about this recently:

    "Dismay as reform fails to stop criminal records for children"

    http://www.heraldscotland.com/news/home-news/dismay-as-reform-fails-to-stop-criminal-records-for-children.21493503

    Posted 10 years ago #
  12. SRD
    Moderator

    @dave " I will, of course, criticise those who ride dangerously wherever they are, which is a separate issue."

    BUT, if we take subjective safety seriously, then its not about riding dangerously at all, but about people feeling that their infrastructure's been invaded.

    we can't have it both ways. either subjective safety is a serious issue impeding more people from cycling and walking, or its not. but saying that its fine for others to cycle on the pavement unless they do so dangerously is a double standard.

    Posted 10 years ago #
  13. crowriver
    Member

    people feeling that their infrastructure's been invaded.

    As I said in another thread, that is more about territory rather than "safety".

    In this country, cyclists are a minority outgroup. It's been like that since the 1950s. So in most cases* people banging on about "safety" are actually banging on about the fact they don't like (insert minority group here) being in "their" space.

    * - There will always be exceptions, as in SRD's blog post.

    Posted 10 years ago #
  14. SRD
    Moderator

    Crowriver - agreed. but it is not just about them being codgers/hating the out-group. it is also about wanting pedestrians to have space to pedestrianise. when i am pedestrianising, i resent cyclists as much as the next codger.

    we are not going to win allies/move on from being a hated out-group by saying 'we're going to use your space'. even if we do say 'thank you' and 'excuse me'.

    Posted 10 years ago #
  15. Whether it's about territory or safety is neither here nor there - use a pavement when we're not supposed to and the hatred of cyclists will perpetuate.

    (this isn't about feeling responsible for the actions of other cyclists, merely just recognising that that actual action does contribute to the perception of cyclists as scofflaws, precisely because we're that minority outgroup, while speeding and using a mobile while driving are accepted).

    Posted 10 years ago #
  16. Baldcyclist
    Member

    So we are saying that cycling is not available to all? As I said in the other pavement thread, my wife is terrified of cars, there is no cycle infrastructure where we live for her to use, shall we just send her bike back?

    If the cycle infra doesn't exist, and you can't cycle on the road, then you just can't cycle full stop. Or we could drive to Livingston, or Edinburgh and cycle there ;-/

    Posted 10 years ago #
  17. Had written a long post, but it boiled down to answering your first question as 'no'. But we should be aware that no matter how safe we say we're being, there are a large number of people who will simply see it as cyclists flouting the law as ever and why should we do anything to help them because they just do what they want.

    Not saying that's a correct assumption either (it's really not a black and white issue, many many shades of grey), but it does exist.

    For what it's worth my wife is the same (after one particular incident on the road in Edinburgh), so cycling is limited to putting the bike on the car and going out to quiet country roads.

    Posted 10 years ago #
  18. PS
    Member

    T'other issue with pavement cycling (and the vast majority of shared paths for that matter) is that they are simply not designed for cycling on. The obstacle course of cable boxes, road signs, bins, bus stops, manholes, puddles, ice etc makes cyclists' movements less predictable. And an unpredictable/unexpected cyclist is a far more problematic and worrying thing than a calm, slow-moving, and clearly-in-control cyclist.

    It is unfortunate that a lot of the folk cycling on pavements fall into the sub-groups of learners, the less confident, or the don'tcares/downrightinconsiderate, as that also makes them more prone to unpredictability.

    Posted 10 years ago #
  19. Dave
    Member

    Shared paths are just official cycling pavements in most cases, often completely unmodified from the previous illegal cycling pavement in any meaningful sense. Even obvious departures like NEPN and the towpath are highly contentious places where different modes compete.

    I sometimes feel that the legality / cycle hatred argument hinges on a belief that intermittent, optional and unmaintained signage somehow means that the public at large will happily accept cycling on "official cycling pavements" but hate us all to death if we go on non-cycling pavements.

    People are happy to condemn pavement cycling right up until it turns out to be a core path which is completely cycle-legal (or otherwise covered by the Land Reform Act).

    Because the phobia and out-grouping of cyclists is not rational, I don't believe we can ignore these contradictions in our own positions in an attempt to build a rational framework to explain away / justify the attitudes of non-cyclists.

    When I ride on a shared use facility I'm fairly confident that most bystanders think the same way about me as they would if I was on a non-legal cycling pavement.

    Posted 10 years ago #
  20. Focus
    Member

    @ PS

    "The obstacle course of cable boxes, road signs, bins, bus stops, manholes, puddles, ice etc"

    One of those etcs being motor vehicles!

    Posted 10 years ago #
  21. Instography
    Member

    Sorry, Mr Cow, just to clarify, is that a 'no' to Mr Baldies question "So we are saying that cycling is not available to all?" You're just saying 'no'? No? You're saying no because there are some people to whom it will always look bad.

    Posted 10 years ago #

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