Wiki quotes does give good selection of Dennis skinner's Black Rod heckles.
He was of course told to retract calling David Owen a pompous sod. OKAY he said, I retract pompous (this led to another early bath for Dennis).
CityCyclingEdinburgh Forum » Debate!
White Paper (THE #indyref thread)
(2915 posts)- Started 11 years ago by Morningsider
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Posted 10 years ago #
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"Or are they doing this but it's not getting picked up in the press?"
Can't pretend to read all the press or hear/watch all the BBC output, but as most seem to be fans of the existing set up I assume that they'd seize on 'positive messages'.
One problem is getting a message that can't be stereotyped as 'you say "British" but (as usual) mean English'!
Clearly 'warm beer and cricket' won't cut it.
Cameron talking (this week I think) about Scottish soldiers in British wars, misses lots of targets.
However much people think independence/separation is a bad idea (for whatever reason/s), Yesers are not getting much leadership/guidance.
Yesterday's intervention from Mr. Robertson saying 'if Scotland stops looking after our nuclear subs we won't be able to keep them anywhere, so we'll lose influence in the world' strikes me as turning a hole into a bottomless pit.
If they are serious about the value of an 'independent' nuclear deterrent how about building a new base at Boris Island?
Posted 10 years ago # -
Paxman said Queen of England on Newsnight last night. He has written books on UK history and should know better. It wasn't even live, it was a recorded interview, so he could have changed it.
On the other hand he does ride a bike so he can't be all bad. I saw him in Kensington 25 years ago when he had a Dawes tourer.
Posted 10 years ago # -
Media in Scotland seem quite biased towards a Yes vote to me? But Alex salmond doesn't see it this way?
As with the cyber nats the whole party apparatus of the SNP is hyper sensitive to combat any argument with instant rebuttal. There seems to be little reasoned reflection or detailed analysis just grubby politics. I also wonder how the country is getting run if all their time is spent in campaigning? Maybe they just have a few very vigilant and aggressive or assertive if you like activists?
The No campaign certainly struggles to get their points across for a variety of reasons.
Meant to say Dennis Skinner still claims to ride a bike at 82. Asked if he had any friends in parliament in 2012 he said Bob Cryer (bob died in 1994).
Posted 10 years ago # -
"The No campaign certainly struggles to get their points across for a variety of reasons."
Yes, but what are they?
Some are things 'they' believe, but no-one else does.
Some are things 'they' don't believe.
'Everything is fine now' doesn't work.
No-one can believe 'everything will always be fine' (from the Yes camp either).
'Don't go you'll be worse off.' Really?
'Don't go we'll be worse off.' Ah.
'Don't go we'll make sure you're worse off.' Mmm.
Losing interest...
Posted 10 years ago # -
gembo, check the Uni of Paisley study.
Magnus Gardham on the Herald is a solid No but doesn't seem to work weekends. The Hootsmon is No. I don't read the P&G much.
Posted 10 years ago # -
Sunday Herald is a Yes.
The pile in my (Edinburgh) newsagent is much smaller than the SoS one and all the London ones.
Posted 10 years ago # -
I think I tried buying a Herald in Edinburgh once and it was behind the counter.
When I first lived in London it was easier to get the Hootsmon but it used to annoy me more than the (Glasgow) Herald. After a few months a shop in Nottinghill started to sell both. Which was nice as I stayed in Kilburn, worked in Kensington and Notthinghill is on the way.
Posted 10 years ago # -
Notthinghill no more.
From Rachman to Cameron in a generation.
Posted 10 years ago # -
If we're going to play the detail game, I'd love to hear what Better Together's arguments for the Remembrancer are. The Remembrancer is the permanent representative of the Corporation of the City of London in the House of Commons. He (it is always a man) sits in a special seat close to the Speaker to make sure that the interests of capital aren't overlooked in the rush to improve the lot of labour. I'm not making this stuff up;
http://www.cityoflondon.gov.uk/about-the-city/what-we-do/media-centre/Pages/recent-faqs.aspx
I'd also like to know what their position is on the Crown veto on legislation. Not the formal signing of Bills by the sovereign, but the backroom veto currenty exercised by the Queen and Prince Charles on any law affecting their interests. Given the extent of royal prerogative and the Duchy of Cornwall that covers almost all laws;
Also, they should make plain their enthusiasm for the presence in our parliament by right of Bishops of the Church of England. Bishops. Men (bishops are always men) in frocks who commune with the creator of the universe.
If Better Together are opposed to democracy they should make the case for government by hereditary clique, holy men and bankers. I'd be very interested to read that argument. The Yes Scotland campaign is sometimes spun as an effort to put one person in charge of our country for ever. The irony of that shouldn't be lost on any student of the great British state.
Posted 10 years ago # -
Indeed. I'm driving my parents to a family wedding in London this summer. My mum wants to spend a couple of days seeing the sights with the one time local (me) so I hope to spend some time going round places I used to know and see how they have changed in 25 years. I don't think she's very interested in Nottinghill so I'll have a look there myself. I'll probably find somewhere to have a coffee during mass on the Sunday. There is a MacDs outside Westminster abbey and Brenda's manor is across the road.
Of course the big changes in Nottinghill/Kensington are said to be underground where people are building huge basements in the London clay. I think south of the river is a bit more tricky, hence the fewer subways.
I did enjoy cycling around there on my old road bike but Bromptons do it much better. Hub gears and wee wheels mean they accelerate and jink well.
Navigating London was one reason why I was interested in attaching a phone to the handlebars. I'm fine between the City and Kensington and a bit on the south side but number one stays in Whitechapel which is a wee bit east for my expertise.
Posted 10 years ago # -
@acsimpson Did you really feel that your arguments are so irrelevant that you would stoop to name calling so that others would ignore them?
What names? Do you mean the moniker of warmonger for 'Baron' Robertson? He's not a pacifist, is he? Or do you mean the swapping of vowels in Bitter Together? Or are you referring to the Brit establishment? If you can be specific then I can respond.
I could come up with many insulting names for the anti union campaigners but a public where people are trying to have a grown up discussion isn't the place.
Grown up? As opposed to what? Childish?
Do you honestlly believe 'Baron' Robertson's "cataclysmic" diatribe about "Balkanization" helps to contribute to a mature and honest debate? Really?
Also, how is focussing on the currency above all other issues a "grown up debate"? Or is that code for debating territory that Bitter Together are comfortable with? Let's forget about any other issues, we'll all discuss currency and nothing else, because that's where Osborne & Co. have drawn a "red line", where there's some "certainty": or is there?
@pintail, The aggressive tone of the cybernats is causing me growing concern.
Cybernats? Haven't spotted any such creatures on this forum.
As for "aggressive tone", was Baronet Osborne aggressive? Or do you consider his Edinburgh statement "statesmanlike"? What about 'Baron' robertson? Was he aggressive, or is that "distinguished commentary"?
Posted 10 years ago # -
Do people have a view on BBC Scotland and STV bias? Again I think they are Yes but others may disagree. I see the study does. On a 60:40 basis. Items deemed by the research team. This does have to be a qualitative piece of research with its own inherent biases, no other way really. I think I would also go with stories at start of show etc rather than overall number but with caveats the research is quite clearly looking to conclude 60:40 in favour No. This would not square with my own watching of the bbc Scotland news largely confined to the 10.25 slot I admit.
on the chip wrappers. Confess I do not read them as I find the standard of journalism to be mostly weaker than my preferred UK national. Same as the overall standard of Scottish politicians, with some notable exceptions. I like to read the guardian to find out how many allotments George monbiot owns now,
Posted 10 years ago # -
Kirsty Wark used to go on holiday with Jack McConnell. John Boothman, who runs BBC news, is married to Susan Deacon. Catriona Renton is a former Labour candidate. They don't bother to tell us who Brian Ashcroft is married to when he is interviewed (he's Mr Wendy Alexander).
After Margo lost the election she was told she couldn't work for the BBC. Iain McWhirter got the same message when he strayed a little and he is on record as being a reluctant No voter. Elizabeth Quigley was demoted to reporting cats up trees when she married John Swinney but her MS might have been an issue as well.
Try reading what Derek Bateman has to say. He used to be on the inside. You might need to skim back a wee bit. He's on holiday just now in Ardnamurchan.
Posted 10 years ago # -
All very well, but I've been on holiday with people whose political views I did not share. I may even be married to someone who has different views.
Posted 10 years ago # -
Media in Scotland seem quite biased towards a Yes vote to me?
You're 'avin' a larf, shurely?
BBC Scotland (TV/radio): almost completely a 'No' mouthpiece.
STV: broadly neutral/balanced (IME).
Scotsman etc.: mainly 'No' with a Tory twist.
Herald: moving toward 'Yes' but with some exceptions.
Courier, P&J etc.: mostly 'No'.
Record/Sunday Mail: 'No' with a few exceptions.
Sun: officially neutral.Then there's the UK (English) media:
BBC: definitely 'No'.
ITN: mainly 'No' except Channel 4 news, which is more balanced.
Sky: officially neutral.
5, cable channels, etc.: do they even know there's a referendum on unless there's some celeb gossip angle?
Guardian: mostly 'No', with a few exceptions.
Financial Times: broadly balanced, what I've been able to see outwith paywall.
Times: officially neutral, but rather towards 'No', what I've been able to see outwith paywall.
Telegraph: do you need to ask?
Mail: ditto.
Mirror, Express, Sun, etc.: as above.
Independent/i: does anyone read that any more?
Metro: largely 'No'.Posted 10 years ago # -
Derek Bateman, did he used to host Mr and Mrs on Borders TV?
Mr and Mrs, dee, dee de dee dee
be nice to each otherWas the tune.
Ardnamurchan nice when stops raining and you are covered in Hands So Soft as midge barrier, other midge barriers available but the nozzle on so soft gives better coverage.
Posted 10 years ago # -
Apparently the midges are a UK asset and will be retained by London in the event of a Yes vote.
Salmond will have to launch a brand new biting insect.
Posted 10 years ago # -
"Salmond will have to launch a brand new biting insect."
Yeah, the cybergnats
Posted 10 years ago # -
@crowriver, I know there is a feeling in certain quarters that there is a bias against them but I am merely pointing out that about a third of population of voters is biased one way about a third the other and the other third don't appear bothered one way or the other.
When you are already biased it is hard not to see bias. This applies to both YES and Noo. This appears to prevent reasoned and lengthy analysis of sufficient quality that rises above opinion. (See also Helmet debates)
Also if you get your retaliation in first this is often a good tactic. So as far as I can see pushing the media are biased leads to counter arguments always being put.
George Robertson, one of my least favourite politicians uses ludicrous language. Nicola Sturgeon, a very brilliant stateswoman must be spoken to and must use similarly cataclysmic insults in the name of balance.
Posted 10 years ago # -
One challenge the Save The Union Camp have is that they are trying to sell the status quo rather than push change. It's well known that the grass is always greener on the other side (until you get there).
Many mistakes have been made in this country by people (politicians) pushing agendas in order to get their name on something that we live in a mess. Education is a prime example of this where policies are chopped and changed while the teachers just want to be left to teach the pupils.
I'm not against change but change for changes sake just leads to expense. If anyone can tell me that Scotland wouldn't be governed by a bunch of self serving politicians in the event of going it alone I'd love to be able to believe them.
Posted 10 years ago # -
The BBC idea of balance is a tricky one too.
It means they have one scientist on talking about climate change and give equal time to Norman Lamont. The value of their insights might not be equal.
On Newsnight they tended to have a Yes spokesman in a recorded interview then two or more No speakers in the studio. This might be changing following the report from Paisley. Gordon Brewer had difficulty interviewing Ms Lamont last month and struggled a bit with George Robertson last night.
PS, as far as I know you're not working for the BBC and tasked with holding these guys to account. Ms Wark is. She must be as Caesar's wife.
gembo,
I've not seen Mr & Mrs for some time, probably since the demise of my maternal grandparents who watched that kind of show.
Retaliation first was what the fragrant Ian Davidson did and it seems to have lead to Isobel Fraser being dropped from Newsnight. This is a shame.
Posted 10 years ago # -
acsimpson,
We would get whoever we vote for. That's sort of the point.
Posted 10 years ago # -
Could also be why up to one million on electoral roll won't vote?
Also not seen mr and mrs since 1977 had a school lunch hour and a bit that let me get home for lunch. Knew I was late if crown court had started. See also Fred trueman's indoor league which after the arm wrestling, darts and bar billiards, ended with Fred drinking a pint of bitter and saying I'll See Thee. My kind of show.
Posted 10 years ago # -
"We would get whoever we vote for."
Strictly speaking 'we (might) vote for whoever is chosen to stand'.
There is a belief (largely erroneous) that the 'best' politicians go to Westminster.
If 'Scotland votes yes' some might try to come back.
The Holyrood voting system was devised to 'make sure' no party had a majority.
Worked well in 1999. Then Tommy Sheridan caused his party to implode and the voters seemed to lose interest in 'fringe parties'.
It would be nice (IMO) if the next Holyrood election (after yes or no) returned a wider range of people/parties (again).
Posted 10 years ago # -
Well Alex salmond came back from Westminster after he had the fall out with his party sorted out and also gave up his work as a horse racing correspondent?
Posted 10 years ago # -
@acsimpson
The point I've been hob-nail dancing around is this;
Being governed by slimy politicians would be a major improvement.
At the moment we are formally governed by;
Politicians
'Lords','Barons' and 'Earls'
Members of the Sax-Coburg-Gotha family
Financiers
BishopsThis is once in a lifetime opportunity to remove the unelected from government.
Posted 10 years ago # -
I actually have little objection to an unelected upper house. They can stand against the government with out worrying about pandering to the Daily Mail et al and their readers. Perhaps if it was less loaded with career politicians and more professionals there would be a better balance.
The alternative is either no upper house which might not be a bad thing or the American system where nothing ever gets done...
Posted 10 years ago # -
Saxe-Coburg-Gotha still our head of state. S-C-G still own the land along with the hereditary peers. Currency still pound. according to SNP.
We have been round this course before on these threads. We are being asked to vote for Independence Lite. There is then some suggestion we can become a republic slowly after that, or indeed maybe not.
Posted 10 years ago #
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