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White Paper (THE #indyref thread)
(2915 posts)- Started 11 years ago by Morningsider
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Posted 10 years ago #
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@steveo
It would be very good if more people argued openly against democracy if that's what they believe.
How about a lower house free not to worry about the Daily Mail or the citizens that read it?
Posted 10 years ago # -
@gembo
The monarch and the monarch's heir currently have a formal role in the executive branch of government.
Anyone suggesting such an arrangement in an independent Scotland would find themselves facing a riot.
Posted 10 years ago # -
How about a lower house free not to worry about the Daily Mail or the citizens that read it?
That would be just grand. But short of shutting them down how do you propose it?
A fully elected lower house is obviously all good and proper but in return they end up with knee jerk, badly written legislation for example the Dangerous Dogs act, the UK equivalent to the DMCA, why because "something must be done", "won't someone think of the children." Or nice juicy contracts for lobbyists.
These are often kicked back by the Lords and the government are forced to tighten the law up or drop it all together. With a fully elected upper house all that would happen is either all legislation would be passed uncontested, both house same party, or nothing is passed, both houses different party. Or you have no check to the governments power, no upper house. Which is grand until the government pulls an Iraq in the first month of its term and there is nothing that can be done for 4-5 years.
People do get hung up on the title of Lords, its no different from any other job title really.
It would be very good if more people argued openly against democracy if that's what they believe.
You've also highlighted the issue with sound bite politics nicely. Which really is the problem with the independence debate, neither side is saying anything that wouldn't fit in a tweet and its given all the same consideration.
Posted 10 years ago # -
@steveo
I can't see any solution to any of those good points except much more democracy.
Doesn't have to be electoral democracy though. I like the idea of an upper house selected by lottery and regular referenda. I also like the idea of not electing anyone who hasn't had at least ten years outside of the law and politics.
Boy can dream, eh?
Posted 10 years ago # -
@steveo, that pretty much summarises my thoughts on democracy. We may be governed by an elected government but the real power lies with the media, lobbyists and others with money/influence to push.
We obviously need people who are paid to run the country but we need to find a way that ensures they do it in the best interests of the population. Just because our current form of democracy is undemocratic doesn't mean democracy itself isn't good.
I've often thought we'd be better to elect 20% of government every year rather than 100% every 5 years which should remove some of the electioneering policies in the year before the general election.
In terms of a second house we definitely need some form of check on those in power. I'll grant that hereditary peers can't be considered a good idea but some form of second house who have the power to block a law without needing to constantly watch their backs is a good idea.
Perhaps we should consider elements of the Swiss system with every major decision going to a referendum and the ability for the populace to create referenda which the government must then implement.
Anyway enough rambling for now, this topic has too many threads running at once.
@crowriver, my reference to your insults was to your rather childish rebranding of the pro union campaign.
Posted 10 years ago # -
Swiss voting looks good, thanks. We've got a lot to learn.
Posted 10 years ago # -
I'm with steveo on the House of Lords. I like the fact that it includes people of experience and experts in various fields. It's basically a revising chamber - if it was an elected chamber it wouldn't be able (or willing) to do the same job.
Posted 10 years ago # -
Venetian Independence.
This was worth a read, very interesting hot issues too.
Took place just 2 weeks ago.
Radgeworks
Posted 10 years ago # -
@Radgeworks
Has the Italian state organised a campaign called Migliore Insieme to explain that the Veneto will never again have access to rampant state corruption, widespread nepotism, Vatican meddling, Cosa Nostra and the ‛Ndrangheta if it goes it alone?
Posted 10 years ago # -
your rather childish rebranding of the pro union campaign.
Bitter Together? Not even mine. Borrowed from elsewhere. Probably a 'cybernat' (is that a 'rather childish' rebrand?).
I like the vowel switch because it's a riposte to all the (not very 'grown up') 'divorce' rhetoric* about 'separatism' and 'leaving Britain' coming from the 'No' camp.
So Bitter Together it is.
*- If it's a 'divorce', which side is the husband, and which the wife? Or was it a same sex marriage? Was there any domestic abuse going on? Which side is/was 'wearing the trousers' (or is that a trick question for Scots known to occasionally wear kilts)?
Posted 10 years ago # -
Examples of cybernats listed here.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/scottish-independence/10737197/Cybernats-shame-Scotland-and-must-be-stopped-Alistair-Darling-says.htmlSeveral examples also in this thread.
Posted 10 years ago # -
Pin,
Is that it? I know it's this week's theme from BT but really. They couldn't come up with anything bigger? Perhaps a cataclysm of some kind would work for them. Or perhaps not, nobody really got behind George Robertson on that one.
So, in the Telegraph, I see claims from Mr Darling. This would be the same Mr Darling who resigned from the Faculty of Advocates before he was investigated for flipping?
Ohh look, it's even in the Telegraph,
Nothing very cataclysmic is there? Even such as it is will you forgive me if I don't take his claims entirely at face value? He has his stoat scarf and other cataclysms to worry about. It's making him blinking… errrr blink. Watch his TV interviews, that guy isn't a well chap. All these years he's been waiting to get a stoat and it might be slipping away from him.
I'm sure David Bowie will survive. I've probably called him worse myself, particularly during the Tin Machine era although we have been through that and some people felt I was unduly harsh to the old guy. I'll not easily forgive Freddie Mercury for the Hot Space album either, and Brian May agrees with that, but I don't think the late Mr Mercury was very bothered. He said as much during the '82 tour. Well… he didn't say, "That bloke in Scotland with the old bike thinks there are only four decent tracks on the album." but he did accept that it wasn't well received. Heck I was one of 4 people who bought his Mr Bad Guy solo album. Some of it was remixed and turned out OK but the original release… Anywho, any old singer who wades into things which he doesn't seem to understand deeply deserves all he gets and I suspect Mr Bowie got exactly what he wanted.
Now, will you, and Mr Darling, be taking responsibility for all Unionist and British Nationalist activities? They have been known to go a little further than stickers and moving vowels around.
I notice that you persist in saying "Cybernat". Why is that?
Posted 10 years ago # -
I agree that his examples are poor to the point of risible but what is that: are you saying we should ignore Alastair Darling because you think he's mentally ill?
Posted 10 years ago # -
"we should ignore Alastair Darling because you think he's mentally ill?"
Er...
"Cybernats" is a useful term of abuse which may or may not refer to a small number of people who may or may not have said things they shouldn't have and may or may not have been orchestrated (or just encouraged ) by employees of the SNP.
It's certainly the case that large numbers of Scotsman stories rapidly got comments from hyper/cybernats - and a few cyberunionists too.
I think part of the issue was a fear that the Yes campaigners were more 'social media savvy' than the Nos, so - 'get some protests in early' (just a theory).
I have no idea if AD has any mental (or physical) 'problems'. He is not the only politician to have moved from the Hard Left to the soft right (as last night's Referendum Connections programme reminded) or under constant scrutiny/pressure. He is one of the few male public figures to have their appearance analysed!
Arguably you have to be slightly unhinged - or mentally strong - to get to/stay at 'the top'.
I'm sure he genuinely believes in 'better together' and is the figurehead of something that he certainly isn't in control of - in terms of the opinions of Treasury officials or (allegedly) Government ministers.
So not really surprising if he is discomforted/unhappy!
He will certainly get the blame if the Yes/No vote is at all close - and he certainly isn't in control of 'events, dear boy, events'. Perhaps he is haunted by his great uncle who was a director of RBS when banking was simpler!
Posted 10 years ago # -
I don't often watch current affairs television but I dialled up Newsnicht last night to see 'Baron' Robertson of Port Ellen defend the remarkable words that he uttered in the United States.
The interesting bit was the economics professor who was on after that. He made the excellent point that at least in the short term the economic activity that currently goes on in Scotland will largely continue whatever way we vote, so the decision on how to vote is essentially an emotional one - do we feel like a separate nation or not?
I feel more at home in Amsterdam and Lyon than I do in London. I'm just not British any more (if I ever was), so unless Britain is going to change enough to catch me up....
Posted 10 years ago # -
Insto,
Did I say that's why I wouldn't believe Mr Darling?
I think the guy is in a bad spot and it's starting to show. Mr Grey used to have a left eye twitch when interviewed. He seems better now. It has been suggested that ticks like that, and Mr Darling's blinking, are caused by having to think fast and keep your story straight. It might be better for him if he passed the torch but I doubt if he will be allowed to. The UK gov already ditched one Scottish secretary to replace him with Alistair Carmichael. I'm not convinced that was a good move but Michael Moore always gave me the impression that he didn't quite believe what he was having to say. I think he even agreed with Ms Sturgeon during a TV discussion.
I do wonder why BT weren't able to get someone else to front the campaign. Being charitable Mr Mundell probably lacks the charisma and is in the wrong party. Mr Kennedy could have done a reasonable job even with his previous issues. Henry McLeish and Malcolm Chisholm have often given me the impression that they could jump ship but Mr McLeish is on record last week as intending to vote No so I was wrong about him. Andy Grey is capable. He got in a fankle with Gordon Brewer about what mandatory meant but he always seemed able. They went with an MP rather than an MSP so Dougie Alexander would have fitted the bill. He was slightly tainted with the '07 election fiasco but nothing seemed to have stuck in public. Humm, I suspect I'll be thinking about the selection long after BT have forgotten it.
My own experience of people with mental illness didn't really work like that. They would have a first step which was questionable. After that everything was logical. If you think you're Myra Hindley then people will be out to get you. If you escaped from the hospital, not a secure unit, and were found because you were wearing jammies then on your next escape it makes sense to take off the jammies. The people I have talked to in mental health units believed what they were saying.
Posted 10 years ago # -
I may count as a 'cybernat' to some, but I will defend to the death the right of anyone to take part in public life regardless of their history of physical or mental health.
Cycling is good for both of those, and I would heartily recommend Mr Darling, Mr Salmond and all Scots to cycle more.
Posted 10 years ago # -
London is quite Russian now. I still like what you can do and see, south bank good, Tate modern has red kites nesting, multicultural place (very different from Scotland), national theatre good, all museums and art galleries fab. I am clearly just a tourist. Various wealthy areas very pleasant - Richmond etc. clearly money needed to survive.
Dickens writing on London is superlative. Iain Sinclair has imagined most of modern London,(though he only likes walking).
I think Amsterdam is great too. Never Been to Lyon.
News night Scotland had interesting energy talking head. I switched to him in midstream but figured out at the end. He is saying that if England bans wind farms (another classic if then argument tht the indie lite debate is littered with on both sides) then at half time in the football when all the kettles in England go on, then England will need scottish wind energy. Can't argue against that.
But the real highlight , apart from the programme about the primates (bonobos are voting Yes but gorillas are voting No) was the Sarah Smith show on the early careers of big Alex, greatest states person in the world Nicola Sturgeon, the one from Islay whose name I forget, al darl and johann. darling sexiest by miles as young man, all the rest square since babies. Darling square now but at least he had it.
Curiously for me, as 1983 first year at Glasgow, three of the people on the show were folk I had been in the same room as. Well one was not on the show, Wendy Alexander who gave me a row. The labour club QMU chair chap, pretty sure he actually lived in the Union, and the one whose name I can.'t remember during my ill fated attempt to participate in the debating with the independent socialists as labour club had withdrawn from such bourgeois nonsense at the time
Posted 10 years ago # -
Even 25 years ago Hyde Park had some wild areas right in the middle of town.
I liked the international quality of the place but I suspect a lot of "British" people don't feel at home there now. For me it meant going to Wembley, not the hallowed turf, for interesting rubies of many types. The cleaning ladies in the lab were Irish or West Indian. Mrs Green, huge West Indian lady, would tear us off a strip if she suspected that we had been riding bikes around inside the building. She was of course correct. I think she sort of liked us doing it anyway.
It seems I overlapped with Wendy but I have no memory of her at all.
Posted 10 years ago # -
Even 25 years ago Hyde Park had some wild areas right in the middle of town.
I liked the international quality of the place but I suspect a lot of "British" people don't feel at home there now. For me it meant going to Wembley, not the hallowed turf, for interesting rubies of many types. The cleaning ladies in the lab were Irish or West Indian. Mrs Green, huge West Indian lady, would tear us off a strip if she suspected that we had been riding bikes around inside the building. She was of course correct. I think she sort of liked us doing it anyway.
I thought it was pumped storage rather than wind farms they used for the half time rosy lea.
It seems I overlapped with Wendy but I have no memory of her at all.
Posted 10 years ago # -
@wfb, meant to say that website with Scotland's news on it appeared to me to have an exceptionally SNP slant to its reporting. Of course I am hyper vigilant for this sort of bias.
However, Harry Reid ex editor of herald said on Sarah smith before they were famous show last night that Nicola sturgeon is the greatest politician in UK today. I can only concur. She is truly magnificent.
Posted 10 years ago # -
Sorry about that. Server error 500.
Posted 10 years ago # -
My concerns about the behaviour of the Nationalists to those who support the Union have been reinforced by the comments above. Those in the Yes campaign are free to put their posters in their front window. I know full well that if I was to put a Union flag in the window it would get a brick through it.
Posted 10 years ago # -
@wfb
"Did I say that's why I wouldn't believe Mr Darling?"No, that's why I asked the question. It could be read that way. The "not a well chap" phrase. Like he'd become some kind of Inspector Dreyfus character. Thanks for the answer.
Personally, although I don't know any of them in any detail, I'd have gone for someone like Sheila Gilmore or Jacqui Baillie. Someone with some strength of character and a bit down to earth, who could have appealed to the Labour voters that were always going to be the target of the more left-leaning wing of Yes Scotland.
Posted 10 years ago # -
@Pintail
Given the varied associations with the Union flag in many parts of Scotland, that wouldn't entirely surprise me but not solely connected with the referendum.Similarly, having seen UDA stickers on Edinburgh lampposts associating opposition to independence with No Surrender, I wouldn't be so confident that Yes posters wouldn't also be bricked, depending on where they were. Possibly not advisable in, say, Larkhall.
Posted 10 years ago # -
Jacqui Ballie? Hmmmm, her local Labour group don't even support her. There is probably video of meetings on YouTube. She can't work out the number of people employed at Faslane. She claimed that hospital infections had got worse and then disappeared when it turned out she was using figures from when she was in power.
She would have been close to the last person I would pick.
Posted 10 years ago # -
Pin,
Which particular comments have made you uneasy?
I wouldn't be putting a saltire or a Yes poster up. I'm in Airdrie but I'm usually elsewhere in early July. I've been on the wrong end of Unionist threats in the past. My transgression would be something like crossing the road at what they felt was the wrong time.
Posted 10 years ago # -
"I've been on the wrong end of Unionist"
I think that's a different sort of unionist.
Maybe.
Posted 10 years ago #
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