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White Paper (THE #indyref thread)
(2915 posts)- Started 10 years ago by Morningsider
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Posted 10 years ago #
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I'm pretty sure the strolling trubadors of the Orange Order are Unionists. It's one of their main things. They had a specially big luau in Coatbridge last year. The police suggested staying out of town but I was in England anyway.
Pin, what has changed that you don't like? You have suggested that you might need to move south if a job moves. That hasn't happened and might never happen. What don't you like now which wasn't the case before?
Posted 10 years ago # -
having seen UDA stickers on Edinburgh lampposts
Probably something to do with the recent Rangers defeat to Raith Rovers at Easter Road. I removed quite a few stickers promoting various flavours of Protestant supremacism from our street at the weekend.
I think that's a different sort of unionist.
Different branch of Unionism perhaps, same Union and broader Unionism (not to be confused with Trades Unions/ism). The main difference is the nationalisms the various branches of Unionism are opposed to. Clearly they are not opposed to British nationalism, ie. Unionism (though there are different factions of course, see UKIP, BNP, EDL/SDL, etc).
Posted 10 years ago # -
I think I got lost at Unionism.
And I signed up for the EDL last year. English Disco Lovers. More Bronski Beat than belligerent.
Posted 10 years ago # -
"Jacqui Ballie? Hmmmm,"
Well, I did say I didn't know much about them. Consider it more the qualities than the individuals.
Posted 10 years ago # -
been on the wrong end of Unionist threats in the past. My transgression would be something like crossing the road at what they felt was the wrong time
ah yes, breaking the ranks i believe its called, and in their minds you deserve to be kneecapped for it
inbred halfwits
Posted 10 years ago # -
bax,
I might not go quite that far. In recent years the walk has been broken into chunks but apparently I wasn't allowed to cross the road between chunks.
At least the Lodge in Airdrie has solar panels so it's a green Orange Lodge.
Posted 10 years ago # -
Heading home from my, then, regular fortnightly visit to Celtic Park one sunny Saturday afternoon a few years back I found myself on my usual route heading east through Airdrie. This was before I decided that approaching middle-age meant that wearing the hoops was no longer a good look, so I was readily identifiable.
I became aware of an increasing Police presence and a sense that 'something' was approaching along the road I was travelling. I slowed down and realised, with some trepidation, that I was heading straight into an oncoming Orange Walk - which appears to be the only thing in Scotland that takes precedent over motorised traffic.
The usual 'hingers-oan' soon became aware of my presence too and I had an uncomfortable few minutes before a handy side street allowed me to effect an escape.
Posted 10 years ago # -
There was a Scottish defence league equivalent and a settler watch type group. And a Scottish republican army. I am a republican but I would have no truck with sectarianism or racism. I would also make a big distinction between someone seeking the continuation of the Union of england(Wales) and Scotland and a member of the UDA.
Posted 10 years ago # -
It's just asking for someone to draw some specious parallel between Scottish nationalism and all those quasi- (and not so quasi-) fascist nationalisms.
Posted 10 years ago # -
@insto tht would be wrong I think. When I were a nipper dragged by my ma to smile on doorsteps whilst she canvassed for right of labour MP Norman Buchan I had it drummed in to me that the SNP were just Tartan Tories. If you look at the party of Winnie Ewing and Gordon Wilson that has a certain connection. But when salmond defeated Margaret Ewing the SNP moved to the left. Obviously still has tartan Tories and tartan liberals too. Also when having to work with policies that seem left of centre one day then right of centre the next (eg. Mike Russell making university undergrad fees free but charging for post grad, except when it doesn't suit etc) there seems to still be inconsistency. I have never had any sense of the SNP taking nationalism to the Balkan level but this is the risk of nationalism that has to be monitored.
Posted 10 years ago # -
I agree, it would be wrong but it's pretty low politics to try to bracket the UDA and Better Together as "different branches of unionism". You might as well bracket Ed Milliband and Militant.
But generally, I think the SNP's tactics are brilliant in an admirably duplicitous way. I refer back to their own (almost in-house) economists, the Cuthberts, who describe them as neo-liberalism with a heart. Genius. Of course, in this context, in the context of an independence referendum, all the attention is on the heart, contrasting that with the Tories' neo-liberalism and offering it as the promise of independence (while always ready to remind us that the SNP need not be in Government lest anyone point at the neo-liberalism at the core). They have been brilliant at creating soundbite policies that can only be dealt with by complex counter-arguments.
Posted 10 years ago # -
What's changed since I moved here 20 years ago ? In a word, aggression. 20 years ago as 'an English settler' I would be subject to Nationalist aggression only if I ventured into the wrong part of town. Not a problem, those parts of town were easily avoided. But now I'm on the receiving end of it often in my own home, some of it from this forum. Salmond's Cybernats but me in mind of Cromwell's New Model Army or Mussolini's Blackshirts.
Posted 10 years ago # -
I'm actually scared to scroll back to see who might have conflated the UDA with Better Together. I may be unique in having actually sought out BT to hear their arguments. One of the best political conversations I've ever had. They fully and willingly embraced the independence movement as civil and civic. I doubt a trip to Campbeltown to seek out the UDA would have led to a chat over tea.
I'm horrified by what has become of BT. I was looking forward to keen and tough debate, but they have now fractured into the British State doing what it does best and the likes of poor 'Baron' Robertson, who seems to be floundering and scared. I've heard and seen nothing of BT on the ground. I don't think they've actually got any volunteers. If anyone here is convinced of the utility of the Union, please do go and join up and get knocking on doors. I'm worried that the No side will withdraw from the public sphere or just implode, and soon.
Posted 10 years ago # -
"I'm actually scared to scroll back to see who might have conflated the UDA with Better Together."
Don't worry it wasn't any suggestion that there were related - just a diversion about 'union' meaning different things to different people/orgs.
Posted 10 years ago # -
Nineteen and two-thirds years ago I would have been frightened at the thought of going anywhere near Leith. Now I live in it.
Posted 10 years ago # -
I saw a BT lady handing out papers at Airdrie train station a few months ago. I have to confess that I went looking for her so I could check if someone had actually turned up. Apparently her paper had a good recipe in it. I'm still trying to get the flap jack one from Scotts. Yes have been round the doors, BT haven't yet. When they do I'll be happy to talk to them. They might be less happy.
gembo, I never saw Tartan Tories as anything other than a sound bite… before we knew what those were and they were called slogans. On the other hand I saw Labour as the establishment and not a force for change. In Drongan Labour would tell people that the SNP wanted to get rid of Catholic schools. I suspect they told a different story to other groups in the village. If you worked in Education and wanted to get ahead you would join the party. They weren't even coy about it.
Then I went to Glasgow University where there was a well organised Labour club and they got what they wanted unless they stood against the Norwegians.
Now I'm in North Lanarkshire in one of the safest Labour seats in the UK. My MP didn't bother to turn up for the bedroom tax vote and she forgot her own debate. I've never seen any members canvassing but she'll probably get back in in 2016.
Are you sure there really was a Scottish Republican Army? I'm not.
Pintail,
I must have missed anti English aggression here. My English friends have not reported any change. I'll be out for a ruby with a couple of them in the next week, I'll actually be the minority, so I'll ask if they have noticed.
George Robertson is apparently one of the big guns. We might also be graced by the noble George Foulkes when he isn't getting mad with it and knocking over grannies in London.
Time to get boys up and out on bikes. Topeak phone dry bag mount fitted on a Brompton so we shouldn't get lost.
Posted 10 years ago # -
I think the argument on here is fairly mild. I think Scottish society is less aggressive, less xenophobic and more tolerant than it has been in the past. Currently there is a ramping up of debate. There have been intemperate comments on here. I am in no position to ask why a cycling forum has an independence Lite discussion (the discussion is not lite , rather the independence on offer, keep the queen, keep the pound etc).
The SNP tactic of being instantly on the offensive is quite wearing.however, it is consistent.
What I struggle with is when seeing the politicians involved why anyone would think anything was going to change for the better? Obviously an independent capitalist country basing its economy on petrol consumption might decide to set up communal decision making etc but I think the reality of an independent Scotland would be a country similar to England with some slightly modified social policy that might Peter out dependent on the economy and some tartan fringe. Independence Lite things won't change so don.'t worry you can vote yes and still be ok. Except there is also the chance of things degenerating into factional infighting (this is the history of Scotland and if there is no auld enemy we will happily argue amongst ourselves). Our chippy wee country needs other countries to give balance and challenge our parochial tendencies.
Posted 10 years ago # -
@Pintail
I can't speak to your personal experience of aggression where you live but there's long been a seam of anti-English sentiment running through Scotland. They're not called the Auld Enemy for nothing. Gerry Hassan has a nice article about it here. If you google "white settler Scotland" you'll turn up a good variety of discussion of anti-English racism, related to in-migration, dating from the 1980s and 1990s when the housing boom in the South East allowed many people to retire to their favourite holiday destinations on the west coast. Some of my happiest days as a social researcher have involved traipsing around the highlands interviewing in-migrants and while many would report incivility and occasional shunning and social hostility (largely deserved - they were the type to waltz in and tell people how to run things better), I can't remember anyone reporting aggression, threats etc. That's not to say it doesn't happen. I guess I'd say it's the long outlying tail of a normal distribution.But there is something that runs through the independence debate. I don't see it so much anti-English as despairing about the English. It's the view that Scotland should be independent because England keeps voting tory. Like that can't change so we'd best just cut the ties.
As for this forum, I can't help thinking you're reading aggression where I'm reading opinions strongly, sometimes hyperbolically, expressed. Stronger sentiments than I would use but then I'm not burdened with caring much about the outcome of this. I just enjoy the argument. But then if you can read genuine aggression into posts here, I'm not sure what to read into the "New Model Army" and "Blackshirts". I'm afraid the only seriously fascist elements in Scotland have wrapped themselves firmly in the union flag not the saltire.
Posted 10 years ago # -
"The SNP tactic of being instantly on the offensive is quite wearing"
I suspect they got the idea from a Campbell.
"Our chippy wee country needs other countries to give balance and challenge our parochial tendencies."
Mmm that's a bit pessimistic.
I refer you to below (from above) -
"I think Scottish society is less aggressive, less xenophobic and more tolerant than it has been in the past"
Posted 10 years ago # -
"I am in no position to ask why a cycling forum has an independence Lite discussion"
Yes you are - this is CCE.
(Which is also the answer to the question!)
Posted 10 years ago # -
@folds
I see from brief googling of Matt lygate, that there has been a change in terms so the small party of like mind people he spoke for is now called The Scottish Republican Socialist Movement. Judean Popular Front? Anyway this group held up some post office savings banks and Matt Lygate spent a long time in jail.
in the 1970s I remember there were some letter bombs of an amateurish nature, possibly tho that was the Popular Front of Judea.
Quick google shows part of the origins of the SNP with the Cathcart Conservative Organisation. my point is that the SNP has left, liberal and Tories, e.g. Duke of Montrose? In its foundation and down the line. At the moment the SNP has a more leftist stance but that has not always been the case. Also in different parts of Scotland the SNP has very different political leanings.
Could not access paper on Winnie Ewing due to server error, but the blurb on the google page was talking of a group perceived within the SNP of being right leaning.
I note Mike Russell wrote a biography of Winnie.
I was part of a student outing which took the money we had collected for the miners direct to Drongan as SWP were putting it about that the centralising of the funds collected was leading to money being skimmed. The people we met in Drongan were very tolerant of the silly students. On the way home in Cumnock I was sent in to the chippy for the tea because I had the correct accent and the Falange were getting a bit nervous and wary of darkest Ayrshire.
Posted 10 years ago # -
@ Gembo well put, a sensible and balanced summary/opinion.
I have absolutely no problem whatsoever with your average person, of any creed,colour or nationality.
My boss is from Worcester, hundreds of my mates are english, irish, welsh, etc
I do have a problem with the current political system, which is badly broken, corrupt and tainted with innumerable scandals that are current, historic and probably ongoing.
As a patriotic scot, i love my country and my countrymen, and i have watched it being trodden into the ground by successive governments of either flavour.
I want a change, and as far as i can tell so do most of the people i know.
I think a change will be healthier than being ruled by a group of self serving parasites who view the average person in the UK as less than that, their thinly veiled contempt sickens me to the core. We deserve a change, we deserve better, its up to us to do that, and send that message in as clear a voice as possible.
I would prefer to be a citizen, not a subject, and to be offered the choice and option is only right.Saor Alba Gu Brath -
Best regards to all
May the better side prevail!Radgeworks
Posted 10 years ago # -
If you went home via Cummnock… you were lost.
I'm really not convinced by the SRA. Bear in mind recent revelations of English police forces infiltrating (and even impregnating) organisations.
Posted 10 years ago # -
@radgeworks, you raise one of my main points. i would like a change too but what is on offer from Independence Lite (same pound, same queen) suggests to me no change. Except those running the country will all be based here. That might seem like a good thing but I think that there are like minded people in England, Wales and NI? Who I have time for in a way I struggle to see the so called states person quality Of Nicola Sturgeon (I am not criticising her, I am just querying the super powers she is portrayed as having where I see a normal person with a narrower range of talents).
Similarly I think British parliament benefits from Scottish input, I think that is what eddie Izzard means with his Please Don't Go.
Of course I also find succour with Milan's anarchists and their adoption of a Luther Blissett as a mascot and there attempt to produce revolt through writing detective fiction. Also Spanish and French radicals. But I miss a fair bit in the translation because my language skills are puny.
Posted 10 years ago # -
@folds, lost for sure but also on a tour, we went to hunterston first, the day after a pitched battle with thousands of miners and police. Two miners only. Thn Drongan then Cumnock. Obvioulsy within the Minibus there were many factions so navigation had to be shared by committee and was somewhat random.
Matt Lygate did live in England and New Zealand before returning to Scotland. In some of these leftist Scottish groups the special branch stooge would largely be running the party on his own. When I attended talks in Partick the special branch chap sat in a suit and took notes, he didn't even bother pretending to be undercover so rubbish were these parties. Of course the chaps giving the talks may also have been in special branch. I watched the Guard last night where Brendan Gleeson finally gets don cheadle to understand the entire gardai are on the take. I then confess there is a fantastic shot of Don running along the Connemara harbour wall with fire bursting from his Kalashnikov. Director must have liked it too as used it again in the credits.
SRA will always be the Scientifc Reading Laboratory of America. Still going strong. You went to the box,you picked a card of your own colour,you read your story and answered the questions, if you got enough right or cheated you moved to the next colour, gold, platinum etc. still going strong and getting good results in Edinburgh in first year of secondary.
Posted 10 years ago # -
@gembo
A Neopolitan anarchist taught me to make spaghetti carbonara. There are very strict rules in this domain, though in no other, which I liked.
If you need any French radical texts translated, just let me know. I like the idea of translating Jose Bove into Doric.
Posted 10 years ago # -
@gembo, I suspect you may be thinking of the SNLA in the 1980s.
Letter bombs were sent to Thatcher and Princess Diana. The perpetrator was later locked up at HM pleasure. Apparently, in the zeroes somebody else sent caustic acid to Cherie Blair. Son of the convicted man sent threatening letters with shotgun cartridges to politicians in Scotland, including wee Eck. Should be out of jail soon.
Not exactly the Provos, are they? Amateurish nutters.
SNP has left, liberal and Tories
A bit like the Labour party then? Some of the liberal and Tory faction left in the 1980s and set up the SDP. That was when Militant were still part of the Labour party, and Michael Foot wanted unilateral nuclear disarmament. Since those heady days, the Tory faction of Labour (they called it 'New' Labour) has taken over. Can be difficult sometimes distinguishing the policies of Labour, Liberal Democrats (Democrats bit from old SDP), and Tories.
Posted 10 years ago # -
"
In this referendum year, in other words, Scotland’s cultural life seems to be thriving; not “tense, nervous and unimaginative,” as Alexander Linklater argued in a recent Observer column, but almost mind-blowingly rich and energetic."
Art?, Culture? Wots that got to do with Economics and Politics??
Posted 10 years ago # -
I thought Gorgeous George and/or George Robertson said there was no culture.
Posted 10 years ago #
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