The SNP never had that many MPs anyway, except in the late 1970s.
CityCyclingEdinburgh Forum » Debate!
White Paper (THE #indyref thread)
(2915 posts)- Started 11 years ago by Morningsider
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Posted 10 years ago #
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"The SNP never had that many MPs anyway..." and since the last UK election the Liberal-Tory government have had twice as many MPs for Scottish seats as the SNP have.
Posted 10 years ago # -
Why the obsession with the SNP? There's whole tonne of intersting ideas to argue about;
Posted 10 years ago # -
"Why the obsession with the SNP?"
Not me.
I just recognise that they are the Gov (and have been for some) and ought to want embrace some more ideas from European/Nordic countries other than 'childcare' and 'oil fund' (probably too late for that!)
I keep saying 'no guarantee SNP will be in charge after next Holyrood election' and 'I hope there will be more MSPs from other than the four main parties'.
Posted 10 years ago # -
'I hope there will be more MSPs from other than the four main parties'
Just saying, but in a PR election a Cyclists' Party could get a seat or two.
Posted 10 years ago # -
"in a PR election a Cyclists' Party could get a seat or two"
Only if a lot of people voted for it.
I suspect there are people who like the idea but wouldn't do it 'in case it just took votes from the Green Party'.
Irrespective of political (party) leanings, I suspect most people on here would support more 'people before cars' policies. I also think that more people in 'the general public/voters' would like that too.
Politicians clearly don't think so and (worse) aren't prepared to show any leadership.
They just buy into the 'people don't like green taxes' and 'there is still some doubt about "Climate Change" 'evidence' ' agendas - which are not being punted by 'ordinary people'.
In this sense the SNP is just like the other parties.
In the context of a 'new Scotland' they really ought to be more bold/adventurous.
In the event of a No vote, they are going to need to establish their difference from other parties even more.
Notionally all parties support the idea of 'more devolution'. The SNP version is just more extreme/better (depending on point of view).
Whether the SNP are 'tartan Tories' or 'more socialist than the Labour Party' is largely irrelevant. They are in Government because enough voters have believed that they were/are 'better at managing things' and/or 'better at giving the middle class what they want'.
There are four 'political events' in the near future - EU election, Referendum, then Westminster and Holyrood elections.
All will change things - though perhaps less than Putin and Obama and the price/availability of their gas supplies! (Just to mention one world unknown unknown).
UKIP (or not) Independence (or not) change of Gov at Westminster & Holyrood (or not) there are few signs of the ('simple'??) changes 'we' want.
Which is one reason I think PoP is important. It's not just about getting as many people as possible to have fun (and why not?) on one day a year. It's about spreading the idea that things CAN be different.
It's also galvanising people into action and (for some) realising that "politics" isn't just about 'tribal parties'.
This forum is populated by a minority of a minority, but the obvious diversity of (general) views makes it clear that (perhaps) 'we' are reasonably representative of people who think about things - and how they could be - but not forgetting the 'realities' of 'the system'.
Every few years 'we' are 'expected' to vote to perpetuate a system that suits those who 'run' it.
The referendum is unlikely to change that!
But by individual and collective actions we can resist, influence, encourage, suggest, promote, advocate change(s) that benefit 'us' and (we reasonably believe) many/most others too.
Posted 10 years ago # -
Was looking at a duff little video clip on the bbc website.
Someone has made flyers that say Aye Defin8tely Naw Defin8tely and Defin8tely Mibbe
Surely that should be defin8ly?
Definately big man being a west coast phrase. I come across that spelling a fair bit.
Anyway the SNP is definitely the party with the most cash to spend on their campaign according to the video they receive in excess of £1.5million, the vide has their partners the greens getting some dosh and another party in the interests of bbc balance the SSP getting £50k.
The other camp hav labour getting circa £800k, Tories £350k etc
So if the wee video is to be belived it is not all about the SNP but they have the most dosh to send on their campaign.
This feels abOut right given the effort being put in to their campaign (as has been said whilst Mike Russell or other lower profile minister watches the shop?)
Posted 10 years ago # -
a Cyclists' Party
Splitter. ;-)
Just vote Green.
Labour need to try harder on active travel. As for the SNP...
Posted 10 years ago # -
Ah well, transport and status seem to be highly entwined in the minds of those seeking power. If I were one of them I'd be seen emerging from limousines, aircraft and first class train carriages.
I would not be seen sweaty, wet or grubby after a bicycle ride.
The exception to the rule seems to be Alexander de Pfeffel. His outsider-insider schtik and gargantuan ego allow him to adopt a crumpled aspect. Farrage could presumably appear at the wheel of a nicotine-stained P-reg Rover 2000. Milliband would probably appear on a swan-shaped pedalo in the belief it was what ordinary people do. Cameron would travel by telekinesis or osmosis.
Posted 10 years ago # -
Ah well, transport and status seem to be highly entwined in the minds of
...the majority of the population of these islands. Lots of other countries too. Exceptions would be Denmark, Netherlands, and, er.....that's it.
Posted 10 years ago # -
Cameron would travel by ...bicycle? As with his fellow Bullingdon bruiser Boris, Cameron is secure in his status. Old money, Eton, Oxford and the leadership of the Tory party have seen to that. He can afford to bee seen on a bicycle, confident that his status will be undiminished.
Other politicians, perhaps less secure about their social standing, feel a need to bolster their prestige by swanning about in ministerial limos. Keith 'Yomper' Brown is just one of many.
Posted 10 years ago # -
"Other politicians, perhaps less secure about their social standing, feel a need to bolster their prestige by swanning about in ministerial limos."
Probably true.
But shows that they are doubly out of touch in these days of TdeF starts in Yorkshire and public disgust at politicians expenses/perks.
Posted 10 years ago # -
"
What is increasingly clear about the present referendum argument, though, is that while the SNP leadership has made huge efforts to distance itself from those fundamentalist attitudes – embracing the idea of a multicultural Scotland, and capturing our modern, multi-layered sense of identity with their fluent talk about the various kinds of social union on these islands that would survive independence – there has been no similar evolution of thought on the unionist side.
"
http://www.scotsman.com/news/joyce-mcmillan-is-the-no-camp-killing-the-union-1-3380584
Posted 10 years ago # -
What Joyce Macmillan is doing here is generalising, way beyond it's scope, and wrongly attributing, the argument made by David Torrance. And, as far as I can tell from what's not published behind paywalls, David Torrance alone (although supported by a number of Conservative unionists). Her generalising reach extends beyond its grasp.
Posted 10 years ago # -
Scotland remains largely mono cultural. I see this as an issue and that is part of what I like about going to London, truly multicultural.
Joyce McMillan writes well but she is biased in her opinions and selective in her reading of history. But one out of three ain't bad.
Posted 10 years ago # -
Apart from the Irish, Italians and Indians* who moved here?
I guess there are only so many countries which start with I.
I do sometimes wonder how people pick where they go. The Irish one seems fairly simple, boats went to Glasgow, Liverpool, London and NYC or Boston.
When I was in school I wondered why someone in Italy would decide that Ayr was the place to be. When I asked it turned out that the Italians I was at school with mostly hailed from the same place and were usually related.
I think a similar sort of thing went on in Tiger Bay, boats went there and so did people from all over the world.
London is a bit of an outlier. I liked the multicultural feature too but I the most local guy I worked with stayed in Croydon.
*I know, many of the Indians are from Pakistan but that starts with the wrong letter.
Posted 10 years ago # -
If you go to Lucca in Itlay there are many Scottish connections.
My dad had a story about Mr B who was Italian (his son a teacher in Edinburgh I used to know). My dad and Mr B worked in the sheet metal industry. Mr B's company in Ayr. But when Mr B retired he went back to Italy and worked for Ferrari.
Posted 10 years ago # -
@Insto, I think Joyce maybe read Gerry Hassan's piece in the Scottish Review? Now on his blog too.
"It isn’t beyond the bounds of possibilities that a new kind of unionism could emerge post-September, but will require a new generation of politicians and very different pro-union parties. Until then, we are faced with a campaign dominated by two nationalisms, one modern, progressive, ‘Big Tent’, happy to win over converts and recognise non-nationalist voices (Scottish), the other, harking back to the past, nervous of how to speak to unsure Scotland, wishing this debate was over and wasn’t happening (British).
When will the British nationalism of ‘Better Together’ wake up and realise that it is a nationalism, and one which seems shaped by entitlement culture and Scotland’s and Britain’s establishment feeling aggrieved at having to explain themselves? Slowly and visibly they are losing the Scotland they profess to care about so much, and in the process preventing the discussion moving on to the non-nationalist terrain of the kind of Scotland we aspire to and want to live in. It is not an edifying or attractive picture, but does anyone senior in the pro-union camp have any idea of the predicament that they have created, and how to constructively change it?"
http://www.gerryhassan.com/uncategorized/george-robertson-and-the-scots-crisis-of-unionism/
Posted 10 years ago # -
One of the guys I knew moved to Italy when we finished school. He had managed to dodge the national service somehow. In S5 the Italian gov had tried to draught him after he had taken out a licence there so he could ride a moped.
crow,
Dougie Alexander is getting fired up about the Axlerod guy. Seems the UK election is the biggest thing on his radar.
Posted 10 years ago # -
"
annie (@daftquine)
18/04/2014 10:38
@jruddy99 @dhothersall @joycemcm Can't help thinking they're talking about Eck's fake indy against what i'd call real indy."
Posted 10 years ago # -
"Seems the UK election is the biggest thing on his radar."
Well it's only a year away and he is Campaign Manager.
It's good that some politicians can think that far ahead...
Posted 10 years ago # -
I recall during a hot summer's day in London 20 years ago I was visiting the 'Fete Worse Than Death' in Hoxton Square (when it was still full of artists' studios, before the digital media crowd moved in). I was thirsty, and popped into a corner shop to get a cold drink. The Pakistani owner, puzzled by my (rather mild) accent, asked where I was from. "Scotland" I replied. "I have family up there, in Glasgow. Tried living there for a bit, but they don't like people like me up there" he exclaimed. Embarrassed, I muttered defensively, "Oh, well we're not all like that."
Whether the Scots who didn't like people like him were Scottish nationalists or British unionists I never discovered. I don't think Scotland is alone in being predominantly 'white' nor in harbouring parochial or xenophobic attitudes in some quarters. The north east of England seems pretty similar in this respect.
I do think attitudes have changed a lot in 20 years though. Conversely, certain English regions have seen an increase in intolerance in recent times, largely aimed at new arrivals from elsewhere in Europe. UKIP hasn't come from nowhere.
Posted 10 years ago # -
I just wrote to Ruth Davidson asking to meet her. Final roll of the dice trying to get a sane view of the Union (sans attacks from space, cataclysms, dark forces etc). You never know.
Posted 10 years ago # -
"
Speaking to Jackie Bird, Margo urged women to vote Yes for the sake of their children’s future, but said they were put off by Alex Salmond’s “steamroller approach”."
http://www.edinburghnews.scotsman.com/news/margo-macdonald-urged-women-to-vote-yes-1-3380833
Posted 10 years ago # -
@ crowriver, there is an element of British nationalism in better together and guess what there is a history of Scottish nationalism in the Yes campaign. The same type of nationalism that you see in the Balkans.
I am not saying these elements are dominant in either campaign. I am saying all nationalisms will have a strain of xenophobia lurking somewhere.
Also Joyce McMillan is old enough to remember the fringe elements of Scottish nationalism that we mentioned previously, cack handedly robbing post offices and sending letter bombs. I do not know how old Gerry hassan is.
Good that the referendum is for all people living in Scotland. But that doesn't make one type of nationalism immune from elements of xenophobia in the other form of nationalism.
Posted 10 years ago # -
@crowriver
Very possibly. Hadn't seen that. And to be honest I find Gerry Hassan such a tedious writer that I often can't be bothered. He reminds me of an amalgamation of Marxism Today and Pseuds Corner. Anyway, David Torrance wrote a critical piece, in The Herald I think, about the SNP's claim to have risen above ethnic nationalism to be a wholly civic movement. Needless to say many SNP and Yes supporters went ballistic. Maybe a bit of both in it.Posted 10 years ago # -
I think the is pretty good evidence though that the areas with high rates of I migration are the most tolerant,and the areas with very low levels who express the most fear?
Posted 10 years ago # -
I'd like the people in my government to be a bit 'more like me'. Skin colour doesn't enter into 'being like me', thankfully. Nor does gender.
Accent does, oddly. Culture does, in the sense that I'd like them to have read Alasdair Gray and Shakespeare and Nabokov. Income matters too. Very rich people seem to be very different to me. Maybe I should say people very much richer than me, given that to most people in the world I'm rich.
As an aside I just fitted a new seat to my bike. Specialized BG Riva. Looked fine in the shop, but maybe it's a bit hard for commuting....were I right about that saddle?
Posted 10 years ago # -
Ah, I think I had one of those saddles. They were in a good deal in EBC a few years back. They do not wear out as they are very hard.
I have read shakey, I have read Alasdair Gray, his earlier funnier novels, I have also served him drink, which he could not hold when I was a barman and he was out bevying with Tom Leonard and Jim Kelman. Only Kelman can hold his liquor (I can't hold my liquor either). I have tried to read Nabokov (.the gift) Does this mean I can be in your govt? I am white scottish male, of formerly working class status also now in the relatively rich bracket.
Might be a bit samey? Though we can agree to disagree and ask Instography for a ruling if it is one for and one against?
Posted 10 years ago # -
I have spoken to Alasdair. Tried to ask him a clever question after a talk he gave, with the inevitable outcome.
I recommend the English Nabokovs, particularly Transparent Things (you may cry), Pnin (you will cry) and the dazzling Pale Fire. I could read that every year for the rest of my life.
Happy to have Instography as speaker of our parliament.
Posted 10 years ago #
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