Happy to have Instography as speaker of our parliament.
Och naw, he'd never be able to decide whose turn it was to make a speech.
Probably much happier heckling sceptically from the back benches.
CityCyclingEdinburgh Forum » Debate!
White Paper (THE #indyref thread)
(2915 posts)- Started 11 years ago by Morningsider
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Posted 10 years ago #
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I'd fancy myself as the Dennis Skinner.
Posted 10 years ago # -
I was the shadow of the waxwing slain
By the false azure of the window paneWhy did I not think of Charles Kinbote as my nom de clavier here?
Posted 10 years ago # -
The beast of bolsover must be holding on to be father of the house - he is 82. Current incumbent sir Peter tapsell is 84 but standing down in 2015.
Posted 10 years ago # -
I believe that William Hague is twelve.
Posted 10 years ago # -
When Hague was sixteen he was already 50. His voice is less annoying now, can this be possible, I am going soft, being in bed with the other better together folk? A rum lot. Still the greens must feel that with their partners? :-)
Ok, wait a minute. Non story about stamps on bbc website. articlee has stupid headline that cost of stamps will go down in rest of Uk if Scotland becomes independent. That will never happen. The cost of stamps has never gone down? Anyway, huge number of items still posted on a daily basis (bet number of letters has gone down and number of parcels up). Majority in urban areas where the company/restored national industry can make a profit. Tiny percentage to Utter Hebrides where a loss is incurred a la factory records best seller Blue Monday which sold millions and lost a penny on every disc.
However, given the subsidy you might be wondering if cost of stamps with lion rampant on them will go up post indie lite? Well don?'to worry as John Swinney has pledged the cost won't go up for at least a minute after independence because Royal Mail will be renationalised. Surely also rebranded as Scottish Mail? Of course my govt. (The one with insto, IWRATS and crow, never sure how many that adds up to?) would renationalise at NO COST, you gamble on the stock exchange,you lose,your shares are everybody's now. John does not say in the stamp article how much if anything his re nationalisation would cost? I am certain I will know this quite quickly, quicker than googling.
Anyhow, little microcosm in the philatelic metaphor. URban UK subsidising cost of stamps for remote parts of UK. Urban Scotland might be able to do same for rural Scotland given that population density is in central belt. But Scotland also has a lot of rurality so it seems likely to me that cost of stamps will go up. I note that when Royal Mail was a national industry and had various efficiency drives the cost of stamps still went up. Even the most ardent cybernat stalking the interweb 24/7 will still need their amazon parcels delivered (note of course costs more already to have parcels delivered to bits of Scotland that are outlying).
conclusion - cost of stamps to go up (regardless of indie lite decision). 62p first class, 53p second class at the moment!
Posted 10 years ago # -
And you want to stick with the guys who sold off the stamps to their chums for a knock down price?
I cancelled Amazon Prime last week because they bundled Love Film in with it at an extra cost (when renewal time comes up). Number 4 son enjoyed watching The Herbs on it but he's going to get the DVD from the Easter Bunny tomorrow.
Posted 10 years ago # -
There's a double DVD, The Herbs + The Adventures of Parsley spin-off series. My son enjoyed it, daughter less keen. Old kid's [rogrammes are good because they often have humour for grown-ups in there (it was Watch With Mother so she needed entertaining too). The Herbs has a few gems, not very PC, so wouldn't pass muster in CBeebies' sanitised world view.
Oh yeah, stamps: they're going to eep going up anyway.
Posted 10 years ago # -
I am a very friendly lion called parsley
Please don't cybernat or treat me harshlyThe. herb Garden lovely.
Also like parsley, prefer flat leaf but only have curly in my cold frame.
I want Scotland to make England better place. That is the starting point for my internationalism. They need our help. I am not wanting to set up a separate Indy lite nation as is on offer at the moment. I want Scotland to learn from other countries,meg Denmark/Netherlands. SNP not interested in cycling. Just bullding roads and basing economy on cars. Their chosen weapon of mass destruction.
Posted 10 years ago # -
I want Scotland to make England better place. That is the starting point for my internationalism. They need our help.
Not sure that England wants nor needs Scotland's help, though the oil money comes in handy and Scotlandshire's a nice place for a jaunt to the Highlands, Islands or Edinburgh Festival.
England has only just begun to notice Scotland's distinct political culture, and that's because of the referendum. To be blunt, most of the time Scotland just doesn't matter to England. Hence we are far better looking after our own interests. To try and 'improve' England is to set out on a hiding to nothing.
Posted 10 years ago # -
@crowriver, that is the history of the Scottish enlightenment many institutions in London founded by scots, much input from Hume, Smith, Adamses, Watt etc. then in 20th century the history of the labour movement, Keir Hardie et al. And from 1979 onwards also the history of the Labour Party. scots MPs fairly prominent in Uk parliament.
We'd be better off on our own, somehow sounds selfish to me.? Orkney and Shetland should claim the oil.
Posted 10 years ago # -
If they did we would still be fine.
"It is in truth not for glory, nor riches, nor honours that we are fighting"
But that's not how continental shelves work.
Do you think we would be better off?
Posted 10 years ago # -
And yes, it's the DVD with all of the Herbs and the Parsley episodes.
Posted 10 years ago # -
No better off, no worse off - Indy lite is same as status quo but with tartan fringe. OPEC control world economies unless you uncouple yourself from oil. But SNP are promising oil tomorrow. I don.'t want that I want cycling today. Wind farms, wave power etc.
Posted 10 years ago # -
So how are we selfish if we aren't going to be better off?
Are we doing better than the rest of the UK on renewables? Did the PM just do something which would make that harder? Are the transmission fees set so that our renewables seem more expensive than they should be?
Not been able to persuade the memsahib I need a B&M eWerk. A £20 big battery was a lot cheaper and I don't need to have a bike with me for it to charge things up.
Some reports say the eWerk doesn't work with recent versions of iOS.
Posted 10 years ago # -
that is the history of the Scottish enlightenment many institutions in London founded by scots, much input from Hume, Smith, Adamses, Watt etc. then in 20th century the history of the labour movement, Keir Hardie et al.
How many folk in England know or care about this history? Precious few. Scots care (if they know, it's only recently we've been taught our own history in school) but the rest of the UK generally don't.
In any case, independence won't stop individual Scots from 'improving' England or anywhere else. It hasn't stopped Irish, Canadians, Americans, Australians, Indians... Independence is about how we are governed, it doesn't magically stop people being involved in inventing, founding or building things.
The arguments over Scotland's place in the union during the current era are precisely because the advantages are now outweighed by the disadvantages.
Posted 10 years ago # -
@crowriver I see what you are saying or alternatively the advantages do not outweigh the disadvantages and the option of independence lite is the same as the status quo but with the tartan tassel.
Tartan being popularised by Walter Scott for the visit of George IV
Posted 10 years ago # -
"To try and 'improve' England is to set out on a hiding to nothing."
I've long felt that that is root of much of the allure of independence. Not anti-English but progressives' despair.
Posted 10 years ago # -
I want Scotland to make England better place.
Would being independent prevent this from happening?
I would suggest that Ireland made Scotland a better place when it paved the way with its smoking ban.
Posted 10 years ago # -
gibbo,
We might lead by example which is difficult, not impossible, within the Union.
Actually Westminster got a jump on us with the same sex marriage recently.
Posted 10 years ago # -
I can see many of these arguments, many English never give Scotland a thought. However, some of the more discerning such as eddie and Davie now that we are contemplating rupture are asking quite sympathetically to stay together. The roads are better now than before the act of union but at that time the number of scots abroad in places like London was very minimal. The act of union paved the way for a significant influx of ideas and business people.
I once gave robust defence of Gordon brown (just after he took over) in the Kings Head pub in Shepperton, where the ferry will take your bike over the Thames. The landlord was not happy, there had been a fracas when I ordered ginger beer for the ginger beer and brown ale shandy I like. His wife started in on him as she had told him he needed it. Anyway, that guy would have given me short shrift if I was a visitor to his country, shorter than he did when I was part of a United Kingdom.
could be another angle for better together - You don't miss your water til your well ever run dry, as Otis and others sang. That is about poo nah nah but in england's case a metaphor and indeed literally (tho south west England also had a lot of water lately).
This is where I say things feel selfish to me (not saying this is the case, just my feeling). Right that's you done it now. You have been nasty to us for years and that is us taking our ball home. Why not be like Jesus sir and turn the other cheek. It isn't too late, many English now realising they need us and like us and would miss us.
This thread has turned me into a better together supporter. What is the term for a better together Internet stalker like a cybernat?
I am getting a poster for the window to see if a brick comes through, or I get a visit and get told to take it down as they will know where I live etc. :-)
Posted 10 years ago # -
There was a Yes stall in Byre's Rd yesterday. Number 3 son wanted a sticker but I'm not happy with kids doing that kind of thing so we declined.
He also got a free sweetie in the Uni Cafe. We didn't decline that.
Posted 10 years ago # -
" What is the term for a better together Internet stalker like a cybernat?"
IntegrationSuperHighwayMan?
Posted 10 years ago # -
We might lead by example which is difficult, not impossible, within the Union.
If we don't lead by example, what do we lead by? Force?
Even when you get a Scottish PM - like Brown - he's dancing to an English tune. (In Brown's case, he was fuelling the London bubble.)
That's because, with only 10% of the MPs - and most of those safe seats - Scotland is a side issue in the popularity contest of politics.
Actually Westminster got a jump on us with the same sex marriage recently.
I thought Holyrood was committed to it before Westminster was (even if it became law sooner in England/Wales).
But, if I'm wrong about that, good for them. We Scots don't have any monopoly on morality.
Posted 10 years ago # -
IntegrationSuperhighwayMan, certainly sounds better than cybernat. Has a kind of superfunk thing going on but also someone might think I could help them with IT problem. Long title also not gender neutral.
Agree seats generally safe but can't take anything for granted in politics these days so Scotland punches way above its weight in Westminster.
Remember thatcher / Thatcherism moved Scotland left. Before that Dundee elected wins ton Churchill as their MP etc.
Good sports mixtures in uni cafe.
Posted 10 years ago # -
This thread has turned me into a better together supporter.
I think you were that way inclined when the thread started. So I won't take the blame for your views, you'll have to shoulder the responsibility alone.
Anyway, that guy would have given me short shrift if I was a visitor to his country, shorter than he did when I was part of a United Kingdom.
I've had short shrift in pubs south of the border on a number of occasions, most times not for something I've said or done, seemingly just for being Scottish (though I am in fact half English by birth, as my mum is English). Each time it has happened it has always come as a shock. I don't even have a strong accent. Once was told to "P1ss off back to Jockland" by the barman in a north London hostelry.
Time was, of course, when pubs would have wee signs saying "No dogs, travellers or Irish". So Scots didn't have it quite as bad as the Irish, but it was still there, randomly. Don't go to pubs these days so they won't get the opportunity now, though of course times have changed.
The roads are better now than before the act of union but at that time the number of scots abroad in places like London was very minimal. The act of union paved the way for a significant influx of ideas and business people.
Oh come on, gembo. It's not the British Empire any more, that's long gone. If the union had never happened, do you imagine Scots would still be rustling cattle, fighting clan wars, and the residents of Edinburgh still calling "Gardy Loo" as they empty their chamber pots?
Next you'll be telling us that the tribal identity of Scotland's Tartan Army on a match day was forged by the lack of Roman influence and Hadrian's wall (as Tory MP "historian" Rory Stewart* was trying to suggest on BBC TV the other day).
* - As well as being a TV personality and MP, Rory is also an old Etonian; Balliol Oxon.; former summer tutor to Diana's sprogs; was a second lieutenant in Black Watch; Deputy Governer in Iraq (for which he got an OBE); attendee at the Bilderberg conference (with George Osborne)......a true Brit establishment figure and a Scot. The union certainly benefits people like him.
He once said about his constituency of Penrith: "Some areas around here are pretty primitive, people holding up their trousers with bits of twine." No trace of aristocratic arrogance there then.
Posted 10 years ago # -
@ c
Don't worry G is just a deviationist
Posted 10 years ago # -
Before that Dundee elected wins ton Churchill as their MP etc.
Also important to recall that for many years there was no Conservative pary in Scotland. Instead Scots were voting for the Unionist party, which was in an electoral pact with the Tories. So when people tell you Scotland was majority Tory in the 1950s that is not strictly true. The distinction seems to have been important too, as when the Unionist party formally merged with the Tories to become the Conservative and Unionist Party, their vote in Scotland started falling, and has fallen ever since.
Also important that Labour's roots are not unionist, but internationalist. Unionism only ever a flag of convenience for Labour, towards the goal of international Socialism. Now that it's no longer a socialist party (Blair dropped Clause 4*) perhaps a moot point. However for those who hark back to Labour's original principles as a justification for voting no, it's worth remembering Labour's historic opposition to unionism.
* - The original version of Clause IV, drafted by Sidney Webb in November 1917 and adopted by the party in 1918, read, in part 4:
To secure for the workers by hand or by brain the full fruits of their industry and the most equitable distribution thereof that may be possible upon the basis of the common ownership of the means of production, distribution and exchange, and the best obtainable system of popular administration and control of each industry or service.
Posted 10 years ago # -
I was voting no before for sure but now because of this thread I am getting into bed with the rum bunch known as better together.
Because
My roots are in international socialism starting with trying to keep a flicker going in Westminster
Deviation, hesitation and repetition, it is all here.
Posted 10 years ago #
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