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White Paper (THE #indyref thread)

(2915 posts)
  • Started 10 years ago by Morningsider
  • Latest reply from chdot
  • This topic is closed

  1. crowriver
    Member

    Candidates for the unionist parties are out, for tactical reasons.

    Surely that is strategic rather than tactical.

    Anyhow, I watched the SNP vid on MyTube. One could just as well argue they were using children, babies and the innocent landscape for scoring political points. However, please note the viddo is set in the future, as our heroine is yet to be born. Thus the scenes of her cycling for transport (to meet her male friend on a bench in front of a loch) are presumably designed to show what Scotland will be like in 16-18 years' time?* So, clearly, according to the SNP an independent Scotland will be a nirvana for active travel by the time I'm getting within audaxing distance of retirement.**

    * - The protagonist may have been older than that, tricky to tell. Young, anyhow.
    ** - This is presumably what "Yomper" Brown was referring to when he described a "shared vision" for active travel by 2020.

    Posted 10 years ago #
  2. wee folding bike
    Member

    This means that the more seats you have already won, the harder it is to gain extra seats, so the overall allocation of seats is more proportional to the number of votes received.

    Would that make it less proportional? A wee bit like Apple's iPod more random option which is actually less random.

    Posted 10 years ago #
  3. chdot
    Admin

  4. chdot
    Admin

    A Yeser on the Yes campaign -

    "

    So what could Yes Scotland now do to catch up with the wider Yes movement and support these local campaigners?

    Firstly, it could promote the diversity of views held within the wider Yes movement, rather than pretend that everyone who supports a Yes vote agrees with the content of the SNP's White Paper.

    "

    http://www.heraldscotland.com/mobile/politics/referendum-news/what-yes-need-to-do-now-to-win-the-referendum.24058461

    Posted 10 years ago #
  5. I were right about that saddle
    Member

    @chdot

    As ever, the people are ahead of the politicians and organisers. I canvass with Yes Scotland, but am not in a political party. Many of the canvassers are in a party, but not all are in the SNP. So when we work in pairs there is always a dynamic conversation that goes way outside a sales pitch for the White Paper. The main task is to undo the misinformation that is blasting out of everyone's telescreens.

    Posted 10 years ago #
  6. gembo
    Member

    Amazingly the CBi chief now stepping down. They really fluffed that up. Now I know I am biased but very few of the businesses who withdrew from the CBI were businesses. BBC (I know only suspended) not a business (does have business wing that gave DOLBY and / or other inventions away for free). Universities, are they businesses? There was a power company.

    I do note that no one seemed to support the CBI in their UDI sorry, I mean UD non I

    And yet I have slightly uneasy feeling that publicly moving from neutral to No leads to an instant campaign against you? Maybe it should be like that and of course maybe the media is very biased in the opposite direction from the way I see it?

    Posted 10 years ago #
  7. chdot
    Admin

    "As ever, the people are ahead of the politicians and organisers.

    Yep - especially on 'traffic'/nicer places to live.

    Posted 10 years ago #
  8. crowriver
    Member

    very few of the businesses who withdrew from the CBI were businesses.
    Which does rather raise the issue of what the hell they were doing in the CBI anyway!

    The whole burach was of the CBI's own making. They did not consult their members when taking a contentious decision, but pretended they had. Then the whole hokey-cokey routine as to whether they are in the 'no' campaign or out of it. Ridiculous.

    What it does show is that the 'voice of big business' is woefully incompetent and riven with internal divisions.

    Posted 10 years ago #
  9. I were right about that saddle
    Member

    @crowriver

    I did love the insight into the 'business' mindset. A mistake was made, a minion blamed and a boss offered lucrative early retirement.

    One does indeed wonder why the BBC are members of the CBI.

    Posted 10 years ago #
  10. wee folding bike
    Member

    I assumed that the non businesses were in the CBI as a way to funnel tax into a political organisation. The make up of the CBI isn't news, Callum Cashley did a piece on it ages ago.

    http://www.newsnetscotland.com/index.php/scottish-opinion/1359-cbi-scotland-who-does-it-speak-for

    Looking for an envelope to return a UKIP flyer at their expense using their FREEPOST address.

    Posted 10 years ago #
  11. crowriver
    Member

    @wfb, make sure it's an already used envelope. No point spending money on them.

    Posted 10 years ago #
  12. chdot
    Admin

    "
    Jon Snow (@jonsnowC4)
    28/04/2014 08:47
    Top end if Britain but is the Scots vote the end of Britain? #c4news Eedle 7pm live from Stornoway

    http://pic.twitter.com/HYcdtSECTW

    "

    I suspect JS is a 'your choice' sort of person. Not sure how 'representative' Stornoway is.

    Hope he's taken his bike, seems to be having a good time!

    "

    Jon Snow (@jonsnowC4)
    28/04/2014 08:53
    @jonsnowC4 Ullapool I shall come back...even if you become part of independent Scotland never been so far North in Uk

    http://pic.twitter.com/Dv1EvvyKzg

    "

    "

    Jon Snow (@jonsnowC4)
    28/04/2014 08:49
    Gorgeous Ullapool 20 degrees here hottest place in UK I'm here to explore the independence vote

    http://pic.twitter.com/jPGJGdIqlI

    "

    Posted 10 years ago #
  13. chdot
    Admin

    "
    Duncan Hothersall (@dhothersall)
    29/04/2014 11:11
    SNP's Euro election broadcast promotes a Yes vote in #indyref. @caronmlindsay points out this is against the rules.

    http://caronlindsay.wordpress.com/2014/04/29/is-the-snps-latest-european-election-broadcast-even-legal-indyref

    "

    Posted 10 years ago #
  14. calmac
    Member

    Just thought I'd be a dork and point out how the European election voting actually works in Scotland, for those who might not know.

    It's not multiple choice or ranking candidates - you put one cross on a piece of paper against the party you want to vote for. Those parties have already picked and ranked their candidates. It's very similar to the Regional vote in the Scottish Parliament elections.

    So say the result is (based loosly on recent polling) SNP 40%, Lab 25%, Con 12%, LD 8%, Ukip 7%, Green 6%, Oth 2%.

    Seat one would go to the SNP's top-ranked candidate (Ian Hudghton, current MEP), and thieir score gets halved, to 20%.

    Next up is Lab on 25%, their top-ranked candidate (David Martin, current MEP) gets in and their score is halved to 12.5%.

    The third seat would go to the SNP's second-ranked candidate (Alyn Smith, current MEP), because at 20% they're the next highest. Their original 40% is now divided by three, to 13.3ish%.

    So we've allocated 3 seats - a wee half-time round-up is in order here.

    It's SNP 2, Lab 1, and the scores on the doors are SNP 13.3ish%, Lab 12.5%, Con 12%, LD 8%, Ukip 7%, Green 6%, Oth 2%.

    Fourth seat therefore goes to the SNP's third-ranked candidate (Tasmina Ahmed-Sheikh), and their original 40% is now divided by four, to 10%.

    Labour would get the fifth seat for their second-ranked candidate (Catherine Stihler, current MEP), and their original 25% is divided by three, down to 8.3ish%.

    The sixth and final seat would go to Con, at 12%, to their top-ranked candidate (Ian Duncan - a new guy).

    So the final score would be SNP 3, Labour 2, Con 1.

    The party missing out on that last seat is the SNP - they'd be next up at 10%. But to have taken that last seat they don't need another 2% - they'd need over 48% in totla so that when their vote is divided by four they are still over 12%.

    At the last election it was SNP 2, Lab 2, Con 1, LD 1. So basically LD loses a seat to SNP (current MEP and past MSP and Minister, George Lyon, missing out).

    Two very important things to note.

    The first is that the lowest score anyone's getting elected with on that measure is 12%. If the Tories had a worse night than that, and fell below 10%, the SNP would be next in line to pick up a seat.

    So if you vote for someone who ends up with less than about 12%, you're not voting for anyone who is going to get elected.

    A significant impact of that, which is how the SNP ended up in a majority at Holyrood from 45% of the vote, is that you can basically take out the votes going to parties who don't meet that minimum threshhold altogether. So in the example above, 23% of votes are for parties who don't get elected, so it's how much of the other 77% you get that makes the difference. At 40% the SNP would have well over half of the votes that actually matter, so would get 3 or possibly 4 MEPs.

    The second important thing is that it's the relative scores that matter. If a party gets more than double the share of another, they'll get two seats before that party gets one. If you're the third or fourth-placed party, you'd better beat the minimum threshhold or you'll get nothing. Also, if Labour don't get more than double the LD vote, the score will likely end up SNP 3, Lab 1, Con 1, LD 1.

    Confused? You probably should be.

    So tactical voting? Yes, each subsequent seat is harder to get for the bigger parties. But if you vote for someone who gets less than 12%, your vote hasn't had any impact at all.

    It's a tough call. If you want to vote tactically you need to consider whether the party you're thinking of voting for can hit that magic 12-ish%.

    Hope that helps someone!

    Posted 10 years ago #
  15. chdot
    Admin

    Dorks are useful!

    Posted 10 years ago #
  16. I were right about that saddle
    Member

    @calmac

    Very interesting, thanks. I hadn't done the threshold maths. Not much point voting Green...unless other people are going to risk it.

    Posted 10 years ago #
  17. dg145
    Member

    "Not much point voting Green" ...

    Possibly a more electorally constructive way of spoiling your ballot paper, though.

    Surely the Greens could out-ballot UKIP in Lothian ... surely ...

    Posted 10 years ago #
  18. crowriver
    Member

    Not much point voting Green

    So, you'll be voting Tory?

    No vote is wasted unless you don't bother at all. Better to vote for the party you agree with than try to influence the tactical arithmetic with your single vote.

    Posted 10 years ago #
  19. kaputnik
    Moderator

    Very interesting, thanks. I hadn't done the threshold maths. Not much point voting Green...unless other people are going to risk it.

    In my opinion it's very worth voting green to try ensure they poll above UKIP. I'd be very embarrassed on behalf of my country if the latter didn't get consigned to last palce where they belong.*

    * other political opinions are available.

    Posted 10 years ago #
  20. I were right about that saddle
    Member

    May just have to bite the bullet on that one. I hate having to second guess other people's voting intentions, but I hate wasting my vote even more.

    If UKIP get a seat in Scotland I will do a Michel Lotito and eat my bicycle!

    Posted 10 years ago #
  21. kaputnik
    Moderator

    but I hate wasting my vote even more

    Of course this assumes that the only way to rate the "value" of your vote as to whether it returns an elected representative or whether or not it demonstrates your support for the parth.

    Even if the Greens don't return an MEP I would not consider supporting them to be a waste. Not supporting them at the ballot box, despite believing in a lot of their agenda and principles, would be a bigger waste in my opinion.

    Posted 10 years ago #
  22. acsimpson
    Member

    I'm not sure about the logic behind not voting for the minor parties. Surely it is just as constructive as voting for any party which doesn't get a multiple of the magic 12% or whatever that figure ends up being.

    Posted 10 years ago #
  23. calmac
    Member

    To be clear, I wasn't trying to suggest anyone should have less reason for voting for a small party than a big one - I was just setting out the maths, and what to think about if you were thinking of voting tactically.

    And I say that as someone who has never voted for the winning candidate in a Westminster election, and I knew every time my prefered candidate had no chance.

    The fact is that if everyone always voted tactically, we'd still be choosing between the Whigs and the Tories. And no party ever won elections without a long, hard road of good 4ths, good 3rds, good 2nds on the way.

    Posted 10 years ago #
  24. I were right about that saddle
    Member

    This situation is oddly complex in that the result will be interpreted by highly paid idiots as a forerunner/omen/prognostication of the September referendum.

    This despite the cross-party support for both Yes and No (other than, I'm guessing, few SNP voters being in the No camp).

    Posted 10 years ago #
  25. crowriver
    Member

    @IWRAS, just vote Green. You know you want to really. ;-) Just think, if everyone who was trying to figure out tactical arithmetic did that, we might elect Maggie Chapman MEP...

    Posted 10 years ago #
  26. Instography
    Member

    " ... the result will be interpreted by highly paid idiots as a forerunner/omen/prognostication of the September referendum."

    Who you calling highly paid?

    There's actually quite a lot of SNP voters in the No camp - 14% at our last poll and 10% undecided (and Labour voters in the Yes camp - 11% and 13% undecided). The Tories are pretty rock solid No.

    Posted 10 years ago #
  27. kaputnik
    Moderator

    The Tories are pretty rock solid No.

    Given their usual abilities for political doublethink, I'm surprised there's not more separatists in the "And Unionist" party!

    Posted 10 years ago #
  28. I were right about that saddle
    Member

    'the "And Unionist" party'

    That union is the 1801 union between Great Britain and Ireland. Who knows what will happen to its vestiges should the 1707 union dissolve?

    Quite a few English tories have been arguing online for a Yes vote the better to secure their grip on Westminster.

    Posted 10 years ago #
  29. crowriver
    Member

    ---
    Edinburgh Council ‏@Edinburgh_CC 53m
    Just one week left to register to vote - make sure you can take part in the European Elections http://www.lothian-vjb.gov.uk/ #votepower

    ---

    Posted 10 years ago #
  30. gembo
    Member

    @calmac that is my analysis of the last Scottish elections. Swing to SNP not just labour but liberals lost big style as punishment for coalition. Should you wish to do more maths you could check it out?

    Posted 10 years ago #

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