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White Paper (THE #indyref thread)

(2915 posts)
  • Started 10 years ago by Morningsider
  • Latest reply from chdot
  • This topic is closed

  1. calmac
    Member

    @gembo for the last Scottish Parliament elections, or the last Scottish European elections?

    I assume you mean SP elections as the last Euros were before the 2010 election and the coalition being formed.

    There's no easy analysis to the 2011 election. People talk about percentages, but it's numbers of votes that matter. Labour managed to get nearly the same number of votes across the country in 2011 that they did in 2007. But they were overwhelmed by a tsunami for the SNP, whose vote went up by over a third, from 664k votes to 903k.

    The LIbs fell from 326k to 158k, with the worst of that falling in the central belt where they were absolutely thrashed. They lost 46 deposits, out of 73 seats.

    A collosal loss. But did they vote SNP instead? Polling shows that Lib Dems supporters are almost as unionist as Tories, so personally I don't think so. I think it was a lot murkier than that.

    On pretty much no evidence, I think many Libs in central Scotland went to Labour or stayed at home; many Labour voters moved to SNP or stayed at home; many people who hadn't voted in a long time voted SNP, especially in Labour heartland seats (I think because it was the first time people in those seats believed the SNP had a chance of actually winning them - like what happens in by-elections).

    Where the Lib collapse really seemed to help the SNP was on the regional lists, just by changing the maths.

    It all meant a perfect storm for Labour - the SNP added the most votes in the places they'd always needed them - all those Labour seat where the SNP were clear second, and had been for two decades.

    The nuttiest result was in Edinburgh South - this was, in percentage terms, the worst seat on the Scottish mainland for the SNP, and they came 4th in 2007. But the vote fractured and the SNP won it with less than 30% of the vote!

    Then, on the regional list, the knife really was turned. The SNP actually did be[i]tter on the lists than in the constituencies, reversing what was an accepted SP norm for them. That, combined with decent numbers voting for parties not making the threshhold, or just limping over it to one seat where they previously had more - LD, Green, SSP, Solidarity, Respect Christians, UKIP, Pensioners - meant the number of votes that mattered was lower. On the lists 85% (H&I) to 90% voted for parties who crossed the threshhold. So where the SNP got 45% of the vote, they were effectively getting over 50%.

    Also, on these lists, in many regions Labour didn't outpoll the Tories or LD/ Green by enough, so allowing the SNP to sook up some more seats even where they already had many constituencies.

    Last thing to note is that constituencies are worth more than regional seats. There are 73 consituency seats and only 56 regionals. So with the SNP hoovering up constituencies, they built a lead that couldn't be outdone in the regions.

    More or less...

    Posted 10 years ago #
  2. calmac
    Member

    In the interestrs of full disclosure I should say that I'm an SNP/ Yes voter, who hopes to vote Green in an independent Scotland.

    I try not to let my biases get in the road of my dorky analysis, but you can never be sure you're managing it so I think it's best just to declare it.

    Posted 10 years ago #
  3. gembo
    Member

    Thanks calmac, that was what was being mooted in either this string or elsewhere in cycling cybernat land, that Libs voted labour and labour voted SNP which as a left of centre labour voter I have to hope is swinging back as only ever happened in by elections before this.

    Posted 10 years ago #
  4. wee folding bike
    Member

    Labour would have to be on the left first.

    Posted 10 years ago #
  5. calmac
    Member

    @gembo, I think anyone trying to predict what the electoral landscape in Scotland will look like after September is wasting their time. No-one knows how we'll react to the result, whatever it is. So we'll see.

    One thing I'd add is that, looking at the results by constituency for UK and SP elections, there does seem to be a large slice of the people who come out and vote - maybe 20% - who vote SNP for Holyrood and Labour for Westminster. Wondering whether they are Labour voters lending a vote to the SNP, or SNP voters lending a vote to Labour, is as pointless as wondering whether a mountain hare is a brown hare that turns white in winter, or a white hare that turns brown in summer.

    Interesting times.

    Posted 10 years ago #
  6. Charterhall
    Member

  7. crowriver
    Member

    @Pintail, "evidence"? Spin and rumours put about by a Westminster Labour politician?

    You'll have to do better than that.

    Posted 10 years ago #
  8. Charterhall
    Member

    Crowriver I refer you to your own posts on this forum.

    Posted 10 years ago #
  9. crowriver
    Member

    @Pintail, I beg your pardon?

    There's "intimidation", and then there's being a bit sensitive when someone disagrees with you. I happen to think there is rather a large gulf between the two.

    Posted 10 years ago #
  10. I were right about that saddle
    Member

    The laws in the UK against harassment are utterly draconian;

    http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1997/40/contents

    Had there been any instance of intimidation during the campaign it would be very easy for those affected to get anti-harassment orders. I have heard of no such instance.

    The mainstream press now regularly make statements about the referendum that are simply factually untrue. We are in uncharted waters, where it will be safest to rely on our own experience. I canvass for Yes and am received politely by all and sundry. I know of only one instance of intimidation, which was by a member of the Scottish Defence League who harrangued a Yes Scotland gethering. He's just a fool.

    Posted 10 years ago #
  11. calmac
    Member

    @pintail I don't think I'd believe a single thing said by a Labour politician about the referendum and reported in a pro-Union newspaper, unless I could verify it elsewhere. The track record of honesty is not good.

    If there were any pro-independence newspapers, the same logic would apply to them.

    When big business cheifs say that independence would be bad for business, what they really mean is that they think it would personally leave them worse off. It could be brilliant for their employees and the economy, but if it makes rich people less rich, business leaders will be against it.

    Posted 10 years ago #
  12. Instography
    Member

    It's an accusation everyone likes to make. Business for Scotland also likes to accuse UK ministers of intimdating businesses. I wouldn't be so quick to dismiss it since it's relatively easily done and, of course, works by securing silence so you're unlikely ever to have evidence.

    The law is irrelevant because you don't actually have to do anything to intimidate people into silence. You just need there to be a perception that there is some risk associated with expressing an opinion or even facilitating the expression of unpopular, although entirely legal, opinions.

    I'll give you an true example - at a previous employer we were offered £1m to conduct a 'referendum' into the abolition of clause 28. Given the strength of feeling about the issue, particularly among the people who made largely subjective decisions about whether we were to be awarded contracts, we considered it wisest to decline the offer.

    It's not that anyone was on the phone muttering dark threats or leaving horses heads under the bedclothes. There's no need for stuff like that. You just need people to be mindful of who ultimately pays the bills.

    Posted 10 years ago #
  13. Instography
    Member

    @calmac
    Sometimes what's in the interests of businesses is also in the interests of their employees. Not always or exclusively, of course.

    Posted 10 years ago #
  14. I were right about that saddle
    Member

    "You just need people to be mindful of who ultimately pays the bills"

    Indeed, that does go on. So people shouldn't be saying that they've been intimidated (unless they have, in which case they should call the police), they should be saying that they are mindful of who pays the bills. We're all responsible for our own actions and our own state of mind.

    Posted 10 years ago #
  15. acsimpson
    Member

    Given the experience of the average cyclist when they try to report drivers who could quite rightly be described as intimidating them I'm not sure why you think reporting such intimidation to the police would be anything other than a waste of both your and their time.

    Posted 10 years ago #
  16. crowriver
    Member

    @Insto, that's not intinidation though. That is acting in self interest: knowing that taking on something controversial could lead to your business being assumed to support the controversial stance by those opposed to it, or even from those avowedly "neutral" who don't wish themselves to be associated with controversy.

    This kind of self-censorship/self-control is not restricted to the world of business. Whenever there is a polarising issue, a proportion of people don't want to get involved or declare themselves publicly, whatever their private views on the topic. Hence the large number of so-called "don't knows" in the opinion polls on the referendum. I'm sure there are some genuine "don't knows" but I reckon a large number are rather "I don't want to tell you". I get the feeling that for some folk, asking if they're for yes or no is a bit like confronting them in a Belfast pub as to whether they're Catholic or Protestant.

    Of course it shouldn't be like that, but many folk feel it is not to their advantage to declare their thoughts, especially if they feel those thoughts may be unpopular with the person asking. A bit like the hidden Tory vote in the polls before the 1992 election, Others use it as a way of deflecting any possible criticism from themselves. I've had folk, knowing that I'm for yes (though not the SNP), preface some attack on the SNP or Alex Salmond they're about to make with "by the way, I'm undecided"*. Aye right! Funnily enough those same folk remained silent on Westminster, even the current coalition, which I found somewhat telling.

    * - Not that I even asked what their position was. I'm talking about interjections/contributions in a yes/no debate.

    Posted 10 years ago #
  17. Instography
    Member

    Indeed. Enlightened self-interest. Everyone should know what side their bread's buttered and act accordingly.

    Posted 10 years ago #
  18. calmac
    Member

    Sometimes what's in the interests of businesses is also in the interests of their employees. Not always or exclusively, of course.

    Of course.

    I just don't expect heads of big business to care about their employees' wealth or the general health of the economy - just their own pockets. So I ignore what they say and look for other evidence.

    For instance, since 2007 (when the SNP first won) inward investment to Scotland has been increasing, and doing so faster than almost anywhere else in the UK. And that actually accelerated after 2011. So when you look at where people are actually choosing to put their money, the prospect of independence is obviously not a problem, in spite of the dire warnings about "uncertainty".

    Big business was also strongly against devolution, but now admits that it has had no negative consequences, and for some sectors (like food & drink) it has been helpful.

    So these reports should be pretty much disregarded.

    Posted 10 years ago #
  19. I were right about that saddle
    Member

    Ever since Pedal on Parliament 2014 I've had Snap!'s 'I've Got the Power' stuck in my head.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_BRv9wGf5pk

    I'm thinking of building a trailer-mounted sound system for next year.

    Posted 10 years ago #
  20. Instography
    Member

    I don't think inward investment necessarily contradicts concerns about 'uncertainty' and it wouldn't if you think businesses don't care about the general health of the economy. The confidence implied by deciding to invest and concerns about uncertainty can presumably co-exist and should only be seen as expressing each business's individual interests and nothing wider about an economy they don't care about.

    I would have thought there would be sectoral variations or variations depending on the reliance on export markets. So defence companies might feel uncertain whereas as microelectronic or renewables might not. Sectors dependent on borrowing or trading in dollars might be concerned but others not. At the very least it suggests that different fat cats will view the impact on their pockets differently and some will be worried and some will be seeing the potential for more cream. Although we might talk about "big business" as though it were a single entity, they're not a unified bloc. Personally, I think independence could be a commercial goldmine but if I ran a BAE shipyard or worked at Faslane I might be a bit jittery.

    What appears contradictory on the surface may simply reflect different underlying realities.

    Posted 10 years ago #
  21. calmac
    Member

    I'm kinda just assuming this is a bit of a general politics thread, would that be right?

    If so, thought you might be interested in the latest polling for the European election, as discussed before.

    This is getting big headlines as it has UKIP at a commanding 38%, with an 11 point lead over Labour and the Tories are on just 18%.

    I've been in to the tables (http://www.comres.co.uk/poll/1167/itv-news-index-european-election-poll.htm) and pulled out the Scottish breakdown. It's from a sample size of only 185 so must be treated with care, but as it's consistent with other polls it's worth consideration.

    This poll has, for Scotland:

    SNP 45%
    Lab 22%
    Con 10%
    UKIP 9%
    Green 7%
    LD 6%

    By my calculation that would mean the seats being SNP 4, Lab 2. The threshhold would be half of the Labour vote, at 11%. So the other parties aren't a million miles away from getting the final seat, which is currently going Lab, and given the margin of error in this poll they're all close (with perhaps the exception of the Lib Dems).

    The reason the SNP could get two-thirds of the seats from 45% of the vote is that only 67% would be voting for a party clearing the threshhold, and SNP could have more than double the Labour vote.

    And from an indyref perspective, the two Yes parties have a combined 52% in that poll. Not that it should matter to anyone, but there it is.

    Posted 10 years ago #
  22. minus six
    Member

    GREEN it is, then.

    Posted 10 years ago #
  23. kaputnik
    Moderator

    http://www.edinburghnews.scotsman.com/news/greens-anger-as-leaflets-posted-in-ukip-flyers-1-3393661

    Apparently Royal Mail has been breaking election rules by posting the Green party political leaflets inside the UKIP ones...

    Posted 10 years ago #
  24. SRD
    Moderator

    In case anyone's interested - this got some media play yesterday: National Identity and Voting in European elections

    https://docs.google.com/file/d/0Bwqhzz8rjw4aUkVlLTBrMmJXbGc/edit?pli=1

    Posted 10 years ago #
  25. Instography
    Member

    @calmac
    IWRATS will be along in a second to accuse you of being highly paid.

    Posted 10 years ago #
  26. calmac
    Member

    @instography Nah... the highly-paid ones never give you this sort of analysis. They're media-whores, not Proper Dorks.

    I could also go into how the 38% figure for Ukip across the UK is only if you take those saying they're 10/10 certain to vote, rather than all stating a preference, and what that could mean. But really, I did actually join this site to talk about cycling!

    Posted 10 years ago #
  27. I were right about that saddle
    Member

    @Instography

    Never wishing to disappoint, j'accuse! @Calmac, you are ferry highly paid.

    Posted 10 years ago #
  28. minus six
    Member

    the price of the millionaire's shortbread on calmac ferries... scandalous

    Posted 10 years ago #
  29. kaputnik
    Moderator

    But really, I did actually join this site to talk abotu cycling!

    It's been known to happen on this forum... Once in a while!

    Posted 10 years ago #
  30. chdot
    Admin

    "But really, I did actually join this site to talk abotu cycling!"

    That's fine, but you realise that you're just the latest person to join who has well informed opinions/insights (not just about cycling).

    'We' like that...!

    Posted 10 years ago #

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