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CityCyclingEdinburgh Forum » Debate!
White Paper (THE #indyref thread)
(2915 posts)- Started 11 years ago by Morningsider
- Latest reply from chdot
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Posted 10 years ago #
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@bax - "the price of the millionaire's shortbread on calmac ferries... scandalous"
Maybe, but a Magnum is a very reasonable £1.40.
While I'm here, are people aware that the SNP MEPs sit in the Green group in the European Parliament? It's the fourth-biggest group and from the UK includes Plaid Cymru and the English Greens. Whether that's a fair representation of their policies would be a matter of opinion, shall we say. I'd say they're generally good on the environment, comparitively very good on green energy, but on transport... eech.
Labout sit with the centre-left/ social democrats, but are talking about quitting because they're too lefty (they do have "socialist" in their name, after all). The Lib Dems sit with the centrists, the Tories aren't in the main centre-left/ Christian democrat group, they're with the slightly nutty group further to the right. And Ukip are with the Eurosceptics, some of whom shouldn't be allowed to use sharp objects or go out after dark.
Posted 10 years ago # -
Can I just ask are crowriver, instography, IWRATS and calmac four distinct human beings?
If not
How many distinct human beings are they?
Also
Is the SNP European vote a protest vote the same as the UKIP vote?
magnums six for four pounds in Scotmid just now.
Interestingly I was well and truly stitched up by the co-operative party on Monday night.
I was placed last on the ballot paper in what was described as a random process. I was the only candidate not already on the committee. If had been done alphabetically I would have been second on ballot.
I was standing on the transparency and democracy ticket but this was a very severe misjudgement. I said in my blurb I would stand down after three years. No one reads the blurb and you are not allowed to speak. During the ÀGM a motion was passed to allow board and committee members to stay on the board for a max of thirty six years. After the vote I was allowed to speak and mentioned my severe misjudgement.
Fortunately I was not elected. because, as I read the blurbs it became apparent to me that committee members are paid £2000 per annum minimum. I had not realised this and was growing increasingly uncomfortable that I was depriving septuagenarians of income.
Also quite good laugh when the acting president said he thought he looked good for 94 (the current president sadly died between OGM and ÀGM).
Nice chat with currie resident with Yes badge, he tried to give me the card with the bogus websites, I have that. Nice chat but he still didn't vote for me.
Do I sound bitter? Stitched up by octogenarians, bitter, me?
Posted 10 years ago # -
How many distinct human beings are combined to make the hive mind complex known as gembo, one wonders?
Or is it none? Is gembo in fact a fiendish AI Turing machine that has (mostly) convinced us of its humanity?
I think we should be told. Imagine if 'gembo' had been elected to the Currie branch of the co-op! A governance scandal would undoubtedly spead.....oh wait.
Posted 10 years ago # -
I will now change my handle to gemBorg. Jean Luc Picard wound up Mr Worf in the Star Trek movie about the Borg with Alice Krige as the queen. He said he was a coward, mayhem ensued, then the captain said in what was the big pay off line of the movie. mr Worf, (tear in Luvvy eye) I was lying when I said you were a coward. You are the bravest MAN I know. man, Mr Worf is a goddam Klingon
I had it in my hive mind that two of the usual suspects were the same person, from the thread on switching names. The two I had in mind appear to live in quite disparate areas of the Lothian conurbation.
In real life I am not quite as Gembo-ish as Gembo. CHdot has picture from previous bike breakfast that I appear in once just at the edge but not seen myself in the thousands of pop3 pics, tho PS spotted me from his vantage point on the grassy knoll but not my pal's bicycle wine carrier strap and related vin rouge.
There are two co-ops in currie and one Scotmid. Also two scotmids in Balerno.
Scottish hockey HQ in juni Green, now empty, used to be a Scotmid according to nice Yes man from Scotmid ÀGM who chatted to me on the bUs on the way home, still didn't vote for me.
Posted 10 years ago # -
Taking the people who said 10 on certain to vote is a fairly standard way of doing it although my understanding is that Comres take people saying 5 or more and use that to apply differential weights to respondents. And then apply some other forms of weighting that I'm none too keen on and generally lack transparency.
But generally even the people who say they are certain to vote overstate their likelihood of voting and they over-report actual voting in past elections, which makes you wonder about the validity of using that as a basis for weighting, which everyone (apart from Ipsos MORI) does, to a greater or less extent.
I quite like idea of being one of three sock-puppets although I wish I knew which of the other three had his hand up my ... making me work. Needs to cut his nails.
Posted 10 years ago # -
Insto I have a phd student having issues with weighting samples. May send him to talk to you....
Farm productivity and livelihoods in resettlement areas in Zimbabwe ...should be a doddle...
Posted 10 years ago # -
Yeah, do that.
Posted 10 years ago # -
Don't start watching Magnum on ITV4. Kojak is good, Magnum sucks you into his world of stupid.
Heard a tram bell today. Road repairs signs told me to "Open Joint Stay in Lane". No bother finding Murrayfield. Lunch wasn't great. Vegetables in a cheese sauce and salty chocolate cake. Slightly better informed about Nat 5.
University Labour party was always doing stuff with lists. I'm on good terms with one of their main guys now. He's not very Labour anymore, or perhaps he is and Labour isn't.
Posted 10 years ago # -
I stand by what I said. The Nationalists have created an environment of intimidation and it is evident on this thread. They know they cannot win through logical fact based argument so they are using belligerence instead.
Posted 10 years ago # -
@wfb they normally announce the open joint instruction as train comes into Haymarket?
Good to leave training better informed.
Pintail - One person's intimidation is another person's legitimate tactics in a debate? This forum is very gentle compared to the political scene. Also this forum is allegedly gentle compared to other cycling forums and other Internet forums, I understand.
I do think there is a very assertive tactic to immediately take on any No opinion. I don't find this intimidating but I used to work in Barlinnie
Posted 10 years ago # -
They know they cannot win through logical fact based argument so they are using belligerence instead.
Sounds more like the tactics of the No campaign. Especially the line of "We're all doomed. DOOMED I tell ye!" (If yes wins). Labelling everyone in favour of independence a Nationalist doesn't help either.
Posted 10 years ago # -
Can I just ask are crowriver, instography, IWRATS and calmac four distinct human beings? quoth gembo
I can confirm meeting three of the five above, and narrowly avoiding meeting IWRATS...
CalMac I've used several times, but never met!
Robert
Posted 10 years ago # -
@Pintail
I'm either thick or thick-skinned but I can't say I've noticed the intimidation here. It would certainly help understand this climate of intimidation if you could select some of the worst examples from this thread.Posted 10 years ago # -
"How many distinct human beings are they?"
Given my current level of fitness, I'm about 1.3.
"Is the SNP European vote a protest vote the same as the UKIP vote?"
In a Euro election no-one is voting for a government, you're not voting for people who are going to run the schools and hospitals, and in the UK no-one knows what the European Parliament does, so it encourages what could be called protest voting. I'm not sure I'd call voting for the party that's been in government in Scotland for 7 years a protest vote, or equate it to a Ukip vote, personally.
"magnums six for four pounds in Scotmid just now."
Yeah, but I can't eat 6 Magnums on a single sailing.
I could try...
Posted 10 years ago # -
@pintail - "I stand by what I said. The Nationalists have created an environment of intimidation and it is evident on this thread."
I for one would be really grateful if you could give quotes for the things you've found intimidating or belligerent. One of the reasons I'm on this thread is because it's one of the nicer places I've found for discussion of all this stuff. But maybe, being on the Yes side of things, I'm not seeing it. So I'd be grateful if you could point out the comments you think aren't acceptable, if for no other reason than so that I don't use that kind of language myself.
As for facts, isn't it quite arrogant to say that you have all the facts on your side? It presupposes that people on the Yes side aren't as smart as you, or are blinkered, or motivated by something not right. There are people smarter and better than both of us on all sides of this.
Posted 10 years ago # -
"if you could select some of the worst examples from this thread"
I think he already did - subjective/inconclusive.
There are a small number of Nos on here who are quite 'bold'.
There are a small number of Yess on here who are quite 'bold'. (Perhaps more than Nos - but I presume that reflects the demographic here and a bias of 'cycling = green' notion.)
One came out ages ago as a firm SNP supporter, another as a Green backer.
Whether most CCEers are silently decided or continual don't-knows is unknown.
People on here (mostly) 'hide' behind usernames, but a fair number have met others in 'real life'.
As with their friends and colleagues, some may be vocal about their general 'politics' and others 'private'.
Whether this because of intimidation (or fear of) is largely unknowable.
I suspect there are known supporters of 'unionist' parties (notably Labour ones) unwilling to publicly admit they intend to vote Yes. (That refers to 'general public' not CCE.)
Posted 10 years ago # -
This is the final post i will be putting up on this forum, period.
Careful what you say here Calmac, i have never insulted anyone, or tried to, and yet i apparently hit a nerve with a strongly put point, despite ending the message with a line stating my respect for the person i was addressing, and their views.
I found my post removed, for suggesting that a perception someone has, might just be down to a lack of their own courage, but hey that judgement is up to CHDOT right, but not in my mind fair or justified.
Ive read a few posts in the last year that are well over the rules, that have stayed up.
This forum can smack of the clique mentality on occasion too, although i venture its inadvertent for the most part. Or is it?
So its been mildly alright.
Goodbye everyone.
RadgeworksPosted 10 years ago # -
Could at least have flounced with a SAOR ALBA!
Posted 10 years ago # -
"Can I just ask are crowriver, instography, IWRATS and calmac four distinct human beings?"
Well I've said it before and I'll say it again; No man is an island,entire of itself, every man is a piece of the continent, a part of the main.
I'd have to be a much better writer than I am to invent three other convincing cyber-personalities. I did once, in a previous job, manage to orchestrate an e-mail correspondence between two mailboxes, writing one side directly and supplying text to the controller of the other mailbox. I like to think it was a decorous and fruitful exchange. I do have a foible for the absurd, but I do not have multiple log-ins for any forum. That would breach my own rather haphazard code of conduct.
I am rather basking in the implication that I am at least one human being.
@pintail Why not come down to St John Vianney Primary on Gilmerton Road this Saturday at 11h00? There's a Yes Scotland event on. I promise you here and now that I will look after you and strike any individual who is less than courteous to you. (I am risking nothing by that promise - you'll largely be dealing with librarians and retired school teachers. I'm a middle manager in a bank.)
Posted 10 years ago # -
Moving on ...
"I suspect there are known supporters of 'unionist' parties (notably Labour ones) unwilling to publicly admit they intend to vote Yes."
I've seen this mentioned a few times in different places as an explanation for the high levels of Don't Know recorded by some of the polls but I'm not so sure and I'm almost totally not convinced that if it exists that it differentially affects potential Yes voters. But I'd need to spend more time peering at data to see if there's anything that would indicate.
Posted 10 years ago # -
"I found my post removed, for suggesting that a perception someone has, might just be down to a lack of their own courage"
That's not true.
You used a phrase that was either a mistake or 'intemperate'.
I wasn't sure what you meant and was quite sure (some) others would take it 'the wrong way'.
I PMed to suggest you edit, but I presume you weren't on-line so I removed the post after about 1/2 hr.
"Ive read a few posts in the last year that are well over the rules, that have stayed up."
That is probably true - and would reflect my lack of judgement (it's occasionally a fine line. I have only ever removed a handful of posts - some to protect the poster) or that I have not actually seen a post and no-one has complained about it either.
"This forum can smack of the clique mentality on occasion too"
I'm sure that's true - and probably inevitable - not least because some people have been here a long time and some of the shorthand/banter is because people (because of CCE) now know each other.
"although i venture its inadvertent"
I hope that's true.
I hope you'll stay on CCE, your contributions have been valuable.
Posted 10 years ago # -
I suspect there are known supporters of 'unionist' parties (notably Labour ones) unwilling to publicly admit they intend to vote Yes.
At first I didn't find this plausible, but then it occurred to me there would be groups of voters in this category.
For example, members of a trade union which has publicly backed 'No' might find it difficult to come out in public as backing 'Yes'. Often these unions are affiliated to Labour, and several backed 'No' despite a large number of members in Scotland being in the 'Yes' camp or indeed voting for parties supporting independence. The posties spring to mind as a recent instance of this. Would it not be difficult to be a "Yes' supporter and a member or activist in that union?
Similarly, when businesses have come out to support 'No' (or 'Yes'), the people employed by the business or even part of the management team might find it difficult to publicly back the 'wrong' side.
So "intimidation" applies to both sides in the debate.
Some workplaces might be more "initimidating" than others. I can't imagine what it must be like to be enlisted in the armed forces and a 'Yes' supporter. Folk would be keeping very quiet about it, I reckon!
Posted 10 years ago # -
Possibly. I can see how that might be the case in a social setting. I tend to think about these things through the prism of the polls because it's what I do and because it's how this impact would be generally seen and might influence others.
Would people be reluctant to report their preference to a pollster? Maybe for face-to-face surveys where the respondent reports to another human in their house. I suspect less so in an internet poll or a telephone poll. There's some evidence that this kind of social desirability bias is lessened where there is both a social and physical distance between the respondent and the researcher. Self-completion surveys, internet surveys and telephone surveys record higher levels of all sorts of opinions that people may be less comfortable expressing in public.
For it to be impacting on polls it would need to differentially impacting on yes or no supporters. I'm not sure I can see that happening.
Posted 10 years ago # -
"For it to be impacting on polls it would need to differentially impacting on yes or no supporters. I'm not sure I can see that happening."
That's a different issue.
Conversation has been about 'intimidation' and/or pressure to conform/hide opinions.
That 'happens' (not just in #indyref) for all sorts of person and business reasons.
Most chilling example today -
Posted 10 years ago # -
If anyone thinks that was OT to make a trivial point, I hope they'll accept that's not my purpose.
Things are related to circumstances as well as interpretation.
Posted 10 years ago # -
@chdot
Perhaps it might help to tease out further the relationship between a man living in fear of murderous gangsters in Ulster and the Scottish referendum?
The link isn't quite clear to me, perhaps others are also unsure?
Posted 10 years ago # -
Not that it would sway my decision either way, but I've just realised - somewhat behind the media curve that I am - that UKIP's top of the list candidate for the Scottish MEP seat is David Coburn, chair of their London Branch (and resident of those parts).
Posted 10 years ago # -
@kaputnik
I asked the Green's second candidate what Mr Coburn was like. He confirmed that he was even madder than you might reasonably imagine.
Posted 10 years ago # -
@chdot
Sorry, I hadn't realised we were so firmly on that aspect of the topic. But all those people reluctant to declare publicly for Yes or No are surely just acting in their own interests. That can't be called intimidation. It's not like Jean McConville at all where the objective was both to punish "traitors" (wrongly in her case) and instill a culture of fear. Unless you think that all these things exist on a spectrum of intimidation ranging from kidnap and murder, through a little bit of rough stuff to, this week Eye story, of journalists being denied access as a reprisal for a cartoon.Posted 10 years ago #
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