I heard Michael McConville talk on the radio this morning and it made me feel both sad and angry that he and Northern Ireland have been abandoned to this lawless state. The Queen's Peace appears not to travel well over water.
CityCyclingEdinburgh Forum » Debate!
White Paper (THE #indyref thread)
(2915 posts)- Started 11 years ago by Morningsider
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Posted 10 years ago #
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"Unless you think that all these things exist on a spectrum of intimidation"
Well in the sense of multiple (scale of) meanings of a word in different circumstances, then yes.
I wasn't using an extremely extreme case to 'make' my point or undermine anyone else's - beyond pointing out that things are open to interpretation.
As others have said, any 'intimidation' (real or imaginary) on here or anywhere in relation to Scottish constitutional matters is minimal/minor. MY mentioning of today's news is because it's in the news today and not about any political implications.
Posted 10 years ago # -
Many of my Facebook friends have Yes badges on their photos. I don't. Mine is a panda of a Brompton and the big photo is a Brompton outside Freddie Mercury's door. Nobody I know on Facebook is in any droubt where I will put my X on the day but the photos can be seen by pupils searching for me. I'd rather they didn't know and I certainly don't influence them one way or the other. At times they have accused me of intending to vote either way. They are starting to ask about it and my S4 tutor group will be old enough to vote. I'm happy to answer their question with information like Ms Lamont has said this, or Ms Sturgron says something different. I don't give them an opinion. They want to know if I'll tell them the following day. I don't think I will but I'll think about that one. There can be other reasons why people might not say yes or no.
Posted 10 years ago # -
"
Both sides of the independence debate need to "step up their game" in the final months of the referendum campaign, according to a survey of Scottish businesses."
Posted 10 years ago # -
In light of the 'stepping up the game' thing, I got to musing about what the constitution of our new country might look like. I've always been a fan of the 1946 French constitution (for some people it's railways...);
Here's my translation of the preamble;
In the aftermath of the victory of free people over those who tried to enslave and degrade humanity, the French people renew their declaration that everyone, without distinction of race, religion or belief, has inalienable and sacred rights. The people solemnly reaffirm the rights and freedoms of mankind and of citizens granted by the Declaration of the Rights of Man of 1789 and by the fundamental principles recognised by the laws of the Republic.
The people proclaim, amongst other things, that it is vital at this time to respect the following political, social and economic principles;
The law guarantees to women, in all fields, the same rights as to men.
Any person persecuted as a result of actions taken to promote freedom has the right of asylum on the territories of the Republic.
Everyone has the duty to work and the right to have a job. No one can lose their livelihood because of their origins, opinions or beliefs.
Any person may defend their interests and rights through union action and belong to the union of their choice.
The right to strike is governed by the relevant laws.
All workers may participate, through their representatives, in the collective determination of their workplace conditions as well as in the management of their companies.
Every enterprise or undertaking which has or which acquires the characteristics of a monopoly should become collective property.
The Nation assures both for individuals and families the conditions necessary for them to develop.
The Nation guarantees to all, especially to children, mothers and older workers the protection of their health and physical security, rest and leisure. Society owes a decent living to every person who, by way of age, physical or mental infirmity or economic situation finds themselves unable to work .
The Nation declares the solidarity and equality of all in the face of the costs of any national disaster.
The Nation guarantees equal access for adults and children to education, professional training and culture. The organisation of free secular education of all levels for all is the state’s duty.
The French Republic, faithful to its own traditions, will adhere to international law. It will undertake no war of conquest, nor will it ever use force against the liberty of another people.
Allowing that any such obligation should be reciprocal, France consents to such limitations on its sovereignty as are necessary to the organisation of defence and the establishment of peace.
France forms, together with its overseas territories, a Union founded on equal rights and duties without distinction of race or religion.
The French Union is composed of nations and peoples who pool and coordinate their resources and efforts to develop their respective civilisations, improve their well-being and assure their security.
Faithful to its traditional mission, France will lead those people of whom it has taken charge towards freedom and democratic self-administration, forsaking any system of lawless colonisation, France guarantees to everyone equal access to public services and the individual or collective exercise of the rights and liberties confirmed above.
Our victory will be over the City of London rather than the Third Reich, but I could see me signing up to this, with 'Scotland' replacing 'France'. For the record, the gender equality part of this constitution was wholly ignored, as were the bits about the colonies.
What would you all like to see in a Scottish, or indeed UK, constitution? What other country would you look to?
Posted 10 years ago # -
What a lot of words
Did I spot up thread that 13% of SNP supporters intend to vote No? That sounds barmy
Posted 10 years ago # -
Sorry about the words :-(
Posted 10 years ago # -
"Both sides of the independence debate need to "step up their game" in the final months of the referendum campaign, according to a survey of Scottish businesses"
The headline and first 9 paragraphs are a selective interpretation of the actual survey results, which you only get to see if you read further. And they're still coloured by the tone of the article.
Another way of looking at the results is that more than twice as many businesses find the information from the Yes side useful compared to the No side, and nearly three times as many described the UK government information as useless.
A third described the UK government information as useless, and more than half see opportunities in independence.
There are different ways of reporting this story, but the BBC as usual go for a negative one. If they can't say something specifically negative for Yes, they'll just say a plague on both their houses.
Another odd article on the BBC Scotland news website is this one:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-27228971
The guy they quote on this gave oral evidence and a 7 page submission to the referendum bill committee last June. He didn't mention this issue once.
No one else is quoted questioning the rules - is he the only reason for this article? If not, then what else is?
Significant prominence is given to an organisation that doesn't exist yet and whose plan to raise and spend 400k in the next 30 days shows they don't know what they're doing.
It doesn't mention that it was Better Together who wanted greater third-party spending allowances because they thought business groups would stump up. They didn't anticipate all the grass-roots Yes groups, which is what this story is really about.
Odd.
Posted 10 years ago # -
@gembo "Did I spot up thread that 13% of SNP supporters intend to vote No? That sounds barmy"
They're not SNP "supporters" as such, they're people who say in polls that they usually vote SNP. They have other reasons for voting SNP, like it means more devolved powers or money for Scotland, or they like their local candidate, or they think the SNP do a good job of running public services.
I know of a guy in a very dark part of West Lothian who has a massive Union Jack on a flagpole attached to his garage, enjoys Orange walks and has voted for Orange council candidates who votes SNP "because I'm Scottish". But he'd never vote for independence. Go figure.
Posted 10 years ago # -
Ooh, in fact, if you like bonkers...
In 2007, after the monsterous cluster**** that was the Scottish Parliament election, the Scotland Office released the full election results broken down to ballot box level (I have the excel spreadsheets, but they don't seem to be online any more). As the two votes - the constituency and the regional - were one the same piece of paper they were able to cross-reference the two. So you could see how many people had voted for each candidate AND each party.
The results are mind boggling. People voted for almost every combination possible. In my constituency, Linlithgow, a handful voted for the Lib Dem candidate and[i] the BNP on the list. More of Margo's voters had voted for the Labour candidate than the SNP candidate. A good 10% of those who had voted for the SNP candidate voted Labour on the list - and even more did it the other way round. People voted Tory + Green, SNP + UKIP, you name it.
It was an eye-opener, to say the least.
Posted 10 years ago # -
a very dark part of West Lothian
Whitburn? Its got to be Whitburn...
Posted 10 years ago # -
How much money have grass roots yes groups stumped up?
Posted 10 years ago # -
Whitburn is dark, Blackburn is dark. blackridge gun free town sign had the bullet holes
Posted 10 years ago # -
To be fair, Blackridge no longer has that 'gun free village' sign.
I'm not sure if that means it is no longer gun free ...
Posted 10 years ago # -
Re: voting for apparently odd combos of parties. I don't see that as particularly odd (barring the occasional extreme). There can be plenty of reasons for it: lack of affiliation to any party (personally, I don't agree with all the policies of any of them); tactical voting (eg, no point voting for Lab on the list if they've got most of the consti'uencies sown up); an effort to seek a bit of balance in parliament; perhaps even candidate personalities (a bit far-fetched that last one, to be fair ;o) ).
Posted 10 years ago # -
"They're not SNP "supporters" as such, they're people who say in polls that they usually vote SNP."
No, these are people who, in the same same survey, within say, 10 minutes, say they would vote SNP in an election to the Scottish Parliament and intend to vote no in the referendum.
It tells us that voting SNP is less than perfectly correlated with voting for independence. Nothing more. These people are voters not election dweebs nor party hacks.
Posted 10 years ago # -
Another devastating report for the nationalists.
http://www.scotsman.com/news/politics/top-stories/scotland-s-credit-will-be-on-par-with-botswana-1-3396159Also supports the rationale against currency union.
Posted 10 years ago # -
"Another devastating report for the nationalists"
Another negative story by Johnston Press.
Posted 10 years ago # -
I see the Hootsmon can't even report what Mr Osborne said correctly.
Having videos play automatically is quite annoying.
S&P took a different view.
Why would we be borrowing?
Since dark forces from space would already have destroyed the world (if you believe other Unionist reports) why would we worry about interest rates?
Posted 10 years ago # -
@pintail
I can see why you would be worried about independence if you give credence to the traditional British press like the Scotsman. In the case of Johnstone press, they are nearly bust. A friend of mine looked at the finance director job there and walked away after seeing the books. They can't afford to do journalism, so what you get is press releases with the word order changed. A quick read of the article reveals that it is predicated on the credibility of Moody's. But oh look...Bloombergs, which can afford journalists reckons;
Now, let's look at the Moody's press release;
Oh, hang on...it's behind a paywall so no one can actually see what it says. (Though the title is interesting, isn't it?) Easy journalism, eh?
Come on down to St John Vianney Primary School on Saturday after 11h00 and I'll be happy to tell you how I fell out of love with Britain and its press. You'll meet a bunch of Yes Scotland people just like us.
Posted 10 years ago # -
@IWRATS
You're starting to sound a bit happy-clappy in that last paragraph there mate. Might need an intervention.The ratings agencies are corrupt and clueless. It's worth watching Inside Job to get a good sense of how fundamentally and systematically corrupt this industry is. And then, if you need something to worry about or weren't worried about it already, worry about how much of an independent Scotland's economy would be predicated on it (and be only marginally less worried about the UK economy's dependence on it).
Posted 10 years ago # -
@Instography
I am getting a bit giddy. It's exciting. I'm actually a grim calculating machine in real life, so the emotion is novel.
I thank you for your intervention.
Posted 10 years ago # -
Another negative story by Johnston Press.
Johnston Press are in no position to lecture anyone about debt and credit ratings given the shambolic state of their own financial affairs!Posted 10 years ago # -
"Whitburn is dark, Blackburn is dark."
Here's the West Lothian pecking order:
Linlithgow looks down on all.
Livingston thinks it looks down on all, but really knows Linlithgow is better.
Broxburn and Uphall think they're Edinburgh.
Stoneyburn has a lovely community council.
Bathgate looks down on Armadale and Whitburn.
Armadale looks down on Blackridge. Whitburn looks down on Fauldhouse.
Blackridge and Fauldhouse look down on the dark abyss of human existentialism.
"blackridge gun free town sign had the bullet holes"
Let's be clear; it said HANDGUN free village.
Nowt against the sawn-offs or the high-velocity hunters' rifles.
Posted 10 years ago # -
@PS - no, I think vote-splitting is generally a good thing and I totally understand all those reasons you gave.
I just don't understand how anyone ends up voting Lib Dem and BNP.
Maybe they just have a soft spot for lost causes.
@ pintail - if you're looking for financial facts, the Scotsman isn't the place to go. The Scottish Government could start a scheme to look after fluffy kittens and the Scotsman would accuse them of being anti-dog.
The FT has had some good stuff on the eocnomics of independence. These guys are no fans of it, but they're money men and they deal in cold, hard facts. They don't let dogma stand in the way of making a buck so their analysis is normally spot on.
You should look it up.
Posted 10 years ago # -
I like the way business people can be ignored when they say things you don't like because they're only interested in lining their own pockets and don't care about people or the economy in general but the FT, I presume because it produced some positive data about independence and the Scottish economy, can be trusted because they're money men dealing in cold hard facts whose analysis is usually spot on. Go figure.
Posted 10 years ago # -
Stoneyburn has a lovely community council.
They should try for the Olympics. After all, they've got a stoney burn.
Where do "the Calders" fit in? Or do they fit in? East Calder always had the feel of the village that time passed by.
P.S. tres amusant post! :) (as is Bax' comment below)
Posted 10 years ago # -
Blackridge and Fauldhouse look down on the dark abyss of human existentialism
What is the meaning of existence?
That, my friends, is the West Lothian Question
Posted 10 years ago # -
Folks, you're wasting your time trying to convince Pintail of anything. He/she is just trolling, and indeed is willing to believe the very worst about the prospect of Scottish independence.
Issue rebuttals all you like for the odd lurker who may be reading this and thought the Hootsmon story was true. Attempting to "turn" Pintail though is a fool's errand. I'm not even going to bother trying.
Posted 10 years ago # -
@instography - The difference is that the FT publish tables and charts, and actual numbers, whereas the "business leader say" articles are opinion only, without any details.
FT don't have an editorial position on independence. The Scotsman do.
A couple of months ago FT carried a series of pieces on it, and started with the basics - GDP, tax revenues, public spending deficit, that kind of thing.
If you want to argue with the numbers published in the FT, be my guest. But probably best to read it first.
Posted 10 years ago #
Topic Closed
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