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White Paper (THE #indyref thread)

(2915 posts)
  • Started 11 years ago by Morningsider
  • Latest reply from chdot
  • This topic is closed

  1. gembo
    Member

    @insto, thanks again for details. In 1992 (no one died - Steve Coogan sketch where he is security guard at swimming pool, I recommend it). Actually 1992 is the year where masses of people in SE England lied. They told pollsters even up to exit polls they voted for kinnockio.

    I think there are definitely shy Nos. you do not see people at every fecking event you go to with a No badge. I also think there are people who are saying yes but will vote No.

    I also think there are one million folk who despite the importance of the election will not vote. They say they are undecided.

    These are just my opinions but then many of these opinion polls such as Internet panels are about as robust.

    Who pays these pollsters to produce biased data? Both sides have their favoured polls and summing over all the polls helps. However, to take an analogy from research, when a meta analysis is done parameters are set and masses of research gets junked as it is not robust and the meta analysis focuses only on the robust data. I fear a lot of these polls can be deleted from the meta analysis and yet they are still in business. Thus someone must be paying for the info which must be cheap and nasty to produce?

    Posted 10 years ago #
  2. Nelly
    Member

    @Pintail "An acknowledgment from the Herald of the Nationalist intimidation that's going on. You can't blame the media outlet for this one"

    So, Lord Haughey - at a Princes Trust event to talk about youth unemployment in Glasgow - manages to crowbar THAT in as a soundbite.

    nice work.

    Posted 10 years ago #
  3. Morningsider
    Member

    Insto - truly fascinating, thank you.

    Posted 10 years ago #
  4. chdot
    Admin

    "Insto - truly fascinating, thank you."

    Yes indeed, thank you - not least because that was (at least partly) in response to me.

    I'm sure some people would expect to pay good money for that sort of insight!

    And it's not even about cycling!

    (Well of course everything is really...)

    Posted 10 years ago #
  5. Instography
    Member

    No one sets out to produce biased data. Clients have budgets, researchers have methods at their disposal. When the budgets get small enough, the best that can be done may be not very good.

    On the whole, I mean across the range of topics and clients, lots of research is used as a guide. Just one more piece of information alongside lots of others. It doesn't matter too much that it's not incredibly accurate. I suppose the problem comes when people want more accuracy than a method can deliver. In this case it's the watchers - the anoraks on the sidelines who want precision. The newspapers want a story and any change in the numbers is a story. It doesn't matter to them if it's real or just noise.

    There may be shy Nos in that sense - wearing badges, displaying posters etc - but I can't see why that would transfer to surveys in large enough numbers to significantly distort polls. Personally, I think the 'Shy Tory' problem was an excuse invented by the pollsters to shift attention from their sampling. But I suppose some people might be very shy indeed.

    Posted 10 years ago #
  6. crowriver
    Member

    @Pintail, what was that about political 'intimidation' again?

    'Scottish independence: Lottery winners call for end to 'smears'

    A couple who won £161m on the Euromillions lottery have called for an end to the "smears" which they said were blighting the Scottish independence debate. Colin and Chris Weir are reported to have given £3m of their fortune to the SNP and Yes Scotland. The couple said the donations had led to them being subjected to "downright nasty" personal attacks. They called for both sides to respect opposing views ahead of the referendum.'

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-27323186

    Posted 10 years ago #
  7. wee folding bike
    Member

    Googling for Mr Haughey might be informative.

    Posted 10 years ago #
  8. Charterhall
    Member

    I think anyone who wins £161M on a lottery then crows about it to the media is bound to get some abuse, especially if they then make a public spectacle of donating £3M as a political gesture.

    Posted 10 years ago #
  9. Instography
    Member

    Yeah, asking for it.

    Posted 10 years ago #
  10. calmac
    Member

    @instography, it's clear that you know a lot about statistical sampling, but maybe a bit less than you think about the diffiuclties of sampling for opinion polls.

    The fact is that, whether you do passive or targetted, face-to-face or phone, include mobile numbers or not, use a self-selecting panel or randomly contact, be genuinely random or targetted random, there is no way you can get a genuinely representative sample. There will always be biases.

    You will get more older people than young. You can fix that by using online, but then it's self-selecting. And you still don't get enough 18-24. You get fewer genuinely poor people, and fewer properly rich people. You get more white and UK nationals that you should. It goes on and on.

    Getting a representative sample is the incredibly difficult bit. It's relatively easy to adjust for age, sex, location, because you can know these. It's a little harder to adjust for socio-economics, because you're dependent on the person telling you the truth, and the measure you use being sound. Then comes the really difficult part in Scotland, especially on the referendum polling; how do you know if you've overpolled supporters of one party due to biases in your methodology?

    In England this is generally done by asking people who they voted fro at the last election. But that doesn't work in Scotland due to the huge numbers who vote Labour for Westminster and SNP for Holyrood.

    Finally, there's the artificiality of the question itself. Telling the pollster something isn't real. marking it on a ballot paper is. I think that accounts for the 1992 problem more than shy Tories - but no-one can ever know.

    One specific way there could be a problem with indyref polling is this: how comfortable are Yes supporters saying that down a phone to an English-accented interviewer?

    Insto, for you to assume that on the edge of the pollsters there are outliers, and the truth lies in the middle, shows that you have a good grasp of statistics in general but not enough knowledge of the history and methodology of political polling. It's an assumption not based in evidence. In the past, all pollsters have been wrong in the same direction on some elections.

    The variables in the methodologies, and the range of potentially acceptable methodologies, mean that the range of uncertainty is very large on this one. Can you find any other issue on which pollsters differ so greatly when asking literally the same question?

    I'd highly recommend the UK polling report blog - http://ukpollingreport.co.uk/ - where these things are regularly and well covered - without snide barbs like yours above.

    Posted 10 years ago #
  11. gembo
    Member

    They should give three million to the other side too. No wonder the place is awash with Yes badges,

    @insto if the pollsters got 1992 Westminster spectacularly wrong because of their sampling not because people fibbed then perchance the same thing is happening again this year? Too much variation between polls? Too many new techniques without a robust methodology?

    I am with you that usually people do not lie, or indeed deceive the pollsters and themselves but when there is a big discord between the heart and the head then that is where the fibs emerge?

    The spin in this referendum is constant and we still have four months of it to go. I think there might be a backlash against it? E.g. Big number of undecided who won't vote?

    @calmac - I read insto's snide barb as irony?

    Posted 10 years ago #
  12. calmac
    Member

    @morningsider - "I based my claims on the difference between Nordic countries and Scotland on personal experience of studying at a Norwegian university. I like to think I have a pretty good handle on this."

    I'm not questioning your understanding of Norwegian culture. And it's worth noting I never even mentioned Norway in this.

    But I don't think it necessarily qualifies you as more knowedgable than me about the economies of Denmark, Sweden and Finland. Scotland is closer to per captia GDP of those countries than it is to the UK.

    As for Ireland being backed by the Euro, that's true. But Sweden aren't.

    Posted 10 years ago #
  13. calmac
    Member

    "if the pollsters got 1992 Westminster spectacularly wrong because of their sampling not because people fibbed then perchance the same thing is happening again this year? Too much variation between polls? Too many new techniques without a robust methodology?"

    Couldn't agree more. That is exactly why I said I didn't know how insto could assert that, "It's pretty clear that Panelbase overstate Yes support and TNS understate it."

    And for the record, I wouldn't claim they are more likely to be wrong in one direction or the other, or even that they are wrong - just that we can't make firm claims when there is so much variability.

    "@calmac - I read insto's snide barb as irony?"

    No, when I said I didn't know how he could say what he did, he answered "Evidently", like I was too stupid to understand his point. I thought that was out of order, especially as I wasn't saying he was wrong, or strongly criticising him, I just said I didn't know how he could claim what he did. There just isn't the evidence for it.

    Posted 10 years ago #
  14. gembo
    Member

    Ah I was referring to the insto's comment about the lottery winner, I did not scroll high enough sorry.

    Posted 10 years ago #
  15. chdot
    Admin

    " I think there might be a backlash against it? E.g. Big number of undecided who won't vote?"

    My take is that the "backlash" will consist of people covering their eyes and ears and then going into the polling booth and staring at the ballot paper (or not going into the polling booth!)

    I expect that there will be a slight increase in 'spoiled' ballot papers as people write something about the 'third option'.

    I think quite a few of the polls close to the vote will be wrong.

    The closest might be a fluke!!

    Posted 10 years ago #
  16. crowriver
    Member

    @calmac, it is clear you don't know what Insto does for a living, otherwise you'd not seek to educate him on opinion polls!

    I am also sceptical about the "science" of opinion polling and the claims made for it. However I've no doubt Insto knows just about all you need to know about how opinion polls are coducted, sampled and analysed.

    Posted 10 years ago #
  17. crowriver
    Member

    @Pintail, whereas a self-aggrandising millionaire business man* who bangs on about Bitter Together is entitled to do so without anyone daring to criticise?

    So in your world view, personal attacks on people are okay as long as the targets are 'Nationalists'?

    * - See his web site for an overdose of arrogant puffery.

    P.S.:- It's worth checking some older Herald articles about Haughey's alleged involvement in bribery and corruption leading to the leader of Glasgow City Council resigning.

    Posted 10 years ago #
  18. Charterhall
    Member

    The only one who is bitter on this thread is you Crowriver

    Posted 10 years ago #
  19. crowriver
    Member

    @Pintail, you are a troll and I claim my five pounds.

    No substantive points to make, just on the wind up. When you can't get anywhere with links to dubious articles, the tone gets personal.

    It's not going to win any arguments.

    Posted 10 years ago #
  20. chdot
    Admin

    Calling someone on here a troll - whatever definition you may think you are meaning - is a "personal insult".

    So STOP.

    Posted 10 years ago #
  21. crowriver
    Member

    And suggesting another forum poster is "bitter" is not, I suppose?

    "In Internet slang, a troll (/ˈtroʊl/, /ˈtrɒl/) is a person who sows discord on the Internet by starting arguments or upsetting people, by posting inflammatory, extraneous, or off-topic messages in an online community (such as a forum, chat room, or blog) with the deliberate intent of provoking readers into an emotional response or of otherwise disrupting normal on-topic discussion."

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Troll_(Internet)

    Posted 10 years ago #
  22. Instography
    Member

    @gembo
    No, I don't think so. There's not really any new techniques. There's more internet surveys but YouGov have been doing that for years and have always been pretty accurate with pre-election polls.

    When you take out the outliers, there's no more variation that you'd expect so what initially looks like variation is actually two outliers.

    @calmac
    "There just isn't the evidence for it."

    There is. I spelled out the evidence earlier. I think gembo's point above, with which you couldn't agree more, is also mistaken. What you need to do now, rather than just reasserting what you previously said, is explain why I'm wrong about Panelbase and TNS. Please feel free to do that with alternative evidence - numbers and stuff. The data is all in the public domain.

    The one further piece of evidence I can give you is the detail of Yes Scotland's reanalysis of the polls before they decided to push the point at which they think they will overtake Yes away from June to September. And I'll offer my opinion of why they chose the first date and why they have moved it out.

    Yes Scotland's analysis is fairly straightforward. Simplistic even. They have calculated the monthly average of all the polls and then made a straight-line projection of the trend. It's not very clever. They've thrown away most of the polling data - anything before November 2013 - and I suspect they have done that for two reasons. First, because cutting the data off at November 2013 is the only way their projection overtakes No before September and second, because cutting off earlier results creates the impression of steady advance rather than what the longer series, back to May 2013, shows - that they are only just back to where they were then. The advance is actually a recovery.

    Now, why have they pushed the date back? Well, it seems obvious to me. Because it's clear from their own analysis that there's a strong chance they won't overtake No any time soon and it's better to push it back than fail. Why have they only just realised this? I think because up to now they have relied on Panelbase's numbers. If you project Panelbase's numbers you get an early lead for Yes. June or July would have looked certain. If you work with all the polls you don't get that early lead. It seems clear to me that Yes Scotland have lost confidence in Panelbase's polls. So, you don't have to trust me. You can trust your own guys.

    More generally, your assertion that "there is no way you can get a genuinely representative sample. There will always be biases" is also wrong. Again, I explained what bias means in survey terms earlier. The assumption of bias is a good cautious starting point for examining surveys but that doesn't mean that surveys are always biased in this fundamental sense. Actually, most surveys with a half-decent methodology are not at all biased in this fundamental sense. If surveys were always biased they would be useless.

    And finally, I'm sure my knowledge of the difficulties of sampling for opinion polls or the history or methodology of political polling is wanting. Well, don't be too hard on me now. We've all got to start somewhere.

    Posted 10 years ago #
  23. Instography
    Member

    @crowriver
    Thanks, but I'm always happy to learn. Every day's a school day!

    And your scepticism is well placed.

    Posted 10 years ago #
  24. gembo
    Member

    Many thanks again insto for the analysis

    Apologies for harping back to 1992 polls

    The exit polls had 305 seats each to labour and Tory

    The poll of polls had labour win by 0.9%

    The margin of Tory win was 7.6%

    The polls wrong by 8.5%

    Obviously this is an oversimplification

    I am just establishing the margin of error was very large.

    Unlike your better informed position from within the industry Inthink this is because people lied not because the pollsters got it so wrong by sampling errors.?

    Labour believed their pollsters and had a victory rally before the result. Kinnockio fell on his sword.
    Apologies if this is boring, I find it worrying how interested I get in standard errors of measurement. In this instance I struggle to see how pollsters who are normally closer to results were so far off.

    Posted 10 years ago #
  25. crowriver
    Member

    I think gembo is onto something.

    I've said it before, there are a large number of "don't knows" in the polls. No doubt some of these genuinely haven't made up their minds. Some will probably not bother to vote. Others will be "not telling you". These latter are the "margin of error" of 1992.

    Back then, they were not telling the pollsters they planned to vote Tory. This time?
    Could be a mix of "secret no" and "secret yes", but in what proportion? It's an unknown unknown, as Rumsfeld said.

    Anecdotally, most of the "don't knows" I'm acquainted with appear to be "secret no" or edging towards. But then, they know I'm a "public yes". So they're trying not to get into an argument or cause a ruckus, I suppose. I wonder if "public no" types have a similar experience of intuitively discerning "secret yes" voters in some acquaintances who profess to be "don't know"?

    Posted 10 years ago #
  26. Instography
    Member

    So, bearing in mind that I don't know what I'm talking about, the polls were wrong by about 10 points (for the sake of simple arithmetic). In the actual election the Tories polled 42% of the vote. You're asking me to believe that around 1 in 4 tory voters were too shy to tell a pollster that they intended to vote Tory? Nah. No way. (And that's the sum of my evidence).

    Posted 10 years ago #
  27. gembo
    Member

    There might not be any connection between 1992 and now.

    In 1992 the Tories maintained their share 42% from previous election despite polls predicting big swing to Labour. Labour only shifted up about 3per cent.

    The Tories had removed thatcher (I quietly don't mention this much in my analysis of all bad things caused by thatcher) Major was seen as a no hoper. The zeitgeist that I remember from the time having been around for several previous elections starting with the post falkland failure to get my apolitical uni chums to return to Ayr to oust George younger (he scraped home) was a very strong You cannot be serious-ly contemplating still voting Tory? Responded to by No, of course not. Kinnockio only had to turn up but then he went on and on and on. People still lying on way out of the polls. (Or pollsters fluffed exit polls too, never heard of that before but the previous very clear swing to labour caused them to take their eye off the ball? Despite some last minute reduction in the swing it was still going to be massive).

    Edinburgh is maybe not typical. But I think yes has returned to its peak. I am also fed up with the spin and the lack of proper independent analysis. Will be no civil disobedience at the farmers market in Balerno today though. They keep the stalls at opposite ends of the street.

    Posted 10 years ago #
  28. Charterhall
    Member

    As Farage says, "to be part of the European Union - and you cannot be an independent, self governing, democratic nation, and be member of a club whose laws are supreme over yours".

    Will be interesting to see if Salmond takes up Farage's request for a debate. He landed some excellent points against Clegg.

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-27339519

    Posted 10 years ago #
  29. Morningsider
    Member

    calmac - I'm glad you accept that Ireland's euro membership means it isn't a useful comparitor for Scotland.

    Hopefully I can convince you that Sweden isn't either. Sweden's national debt/GDP ratio is around half of that of the UK, and hence Scotland(https://www.riksgalden.se/en/aboutsndo/). It has a AAA credit rating. It has hundreds of years of payment history. It is famously one of the most stable countries in the world. It is home to world leading companies such as IKEA, Volvo, Scania, H&M and Skanska. It's GDP per capita is higher than Scotland's - according to the Scottish Government:

    http://www.scotland.gov.uk/Resource/0044/00446013.pdf

    I think these are pretty clear reasons why Sweden would enjoy a lower repayment rate than a newly independent Scotland.

    Posted 10 years ago #
  30. gembo
    Member

    You have to hope that all Farage does is split the Tory vote. This hypothesis will be tested severely if UKIP secure a Scottish MEP. This would have seemed preposterous previously but we live in strange days.

    Posted 10 years ago #

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