As illustrated by Galloway, a great deal of support for independence appears to be based on hatred - of the English, of Tories, of Margaret Thatcher. Very disappointing.
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White Paper (THE #indyref thread)
(2915 posts)- Started 11 years ago by Morningsider
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Posted 10 years ago #
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@wfb
I don't know what "list the horses" means.I was paraphrasing what Mandy Rhodes seems to be saying, which is that the strategy of presenting independence as though nothing of any significance will change might just backfire as people respond with a shrug and a 'why bother?'.
It looks to me like the argument for Yes is that everything will be much better, apart from the things that most people don't want to change, which will be just the same. If you don't believe they can be much better or just the same, here's an example from somewhere else or some time in the past when it was almost sort of the same so we can do that thing. If you don't like any of those things being just the same, don't worry because that's a transitional thing or we're only saying that because it might frighten some other people. All things become possible after independence but we can't say which ones because, y'know, you can't predict these things and things might change after. And we can't change the things that have to stay the same because we had to agree to give up some of the independence so that we could keep things the same after independence. But we can change everything else. Apart from the things you don't want to change. They'll be the same.
The argument for No is at least simple: everything will be disastrous after independence but if you stay in the UK you can have all the things that you want to keep anyway and if you vote for us we can fix whatever it is you wanted fixed even though we didn't fix it last time we had the chance. But next time, honest.
You can sort of see why Don't Know is such a popular choice.
Posted 10 years ago # -
"As illustrated by Galloway, a great deal of support for independence appears to be based on hatred"
Perhaps.
But he doesn't want independence (unless he can be Emperor).
Posted 10 years ago # -
David Cameron actually warned Better Together to stop saying everything would be awful because he reckoned it would be counter productive.
Don't know is a reasonable choice as is abstaining (and No for that matter). I nearly abstained on the Westminster constitutional vote a few years ago. Eventually I did what David Cameron didn't want but only because I wasn't comfortable with abstaining.
George is entertaining but I'm glad he's not my MP.
Posted 10 years ago # -
@Pintail
"If any one of Standard Life, RBS, or Lloyds-owned Bank of Scotland/Scottish Widows pulled out of Scotland it would it have a severe impact on the Edinburgh/Scottish economy, if all three pulled out it would be devastating."
I know a bit about this subject as I've worked for all three of the companies you mention. LBG and to a far greater extent RBS are state-backed and owned, so they operate under non-commercial constraints. It's hard to know what will happen to them, but the decisions are likely to be political.
Standard Life on the other hand is floating freely on the London stock exchange. It has done its best to internationalise - outsourcing work to India, setting up joint deals in China and so on. If it wasn't for the legacy computer systems it might already have upped sticks and gone to seek cheaper labour.
That's the kind of ownership model which has made the UK such a hard place to be a worker and such a nice place to be wealthy. The UK media by and large talk as if no other model was possible. But there are many - Gernmany's mittelstand being one very good example.
If you want an example of what an independent country could do, it's to actually challenge the system whereby companies can be 'owned' by high frequency share traders and free to waltz off without considering the workforce or the customers. It takes a bit of effort to imagine a different society, but once we've dared to do it then sticking with the medieval pantomime in Westminster barely seems like a sane choice.
Posted 10 years ago # -
Hatred of the English?
I've got family and friends there, I lived there for a few years and every bike frame I own was made there.* I wouldn't want to live there again but I'm happy to visit.
*not the Ti Brompton bits
Posted 10 years ago # -
The horses were so calmed by the proposals that when the stable door was opened and the green fields of independence were set before them, they stood in their stalls eating hay.
If we're going for reductio ad absurdum then we might add that the horses munching hay while pondering the option of green grass were the well fed, healthy ones, who were looking forward to working for the farmer, and were generally contented with their lot. However, further back in the damper, colder edges of the stables, were the underfed, the sick, and the lame horses declared unfit for work. They had little hay to eat and dirty straw underhoof. They looked fearfully beyond the rear gate of the stables into the courtyard, where a large van had recently drawn up: "Cameron & Osborne, Knacker's Yard and Glue Manufacturing" was displayed proudly on the side. Two men had emerged from the van and were walking towards the stables with menacing grins on their faces. "We're coming for you" chuckled Osborne.
Posted 10 years ago # -
Oh and regardless of what Gorgeous George thinks or wants (his credibility is surely in question on this matter), what did not appear in the Scotsman today was the following stooshie within Scottish Labour:
Labour MP Ian Davidson warns plans to devolve tax-raising powers to Holyrood would be detrimental to Scotland
4 Feb 2014 00:01
THE proposal from Labour's devolution commission is threatening to cause a major row within the party and Glasgow MP Davidson said public spending would suffer a cash squeeze under Johann Lamont's plans.Daily Record archive link: http://archive.is/CEPU7
Analysis from Yes leaning source: http://wingsoverscotland.com/an-unexpected-alliance/
Posted 10 years ago # -
Yes, Mr Davidson making a challenge for Mr Sarwar or Ms Lamont's position?
Interesting one to watch.
Posted 10 years ago # -
It's not often that I agree with the Lib Dem's Bank Basher in Chief, buf in this case...
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-26053668
Scottish independence: Vince Cable claims RBS would 'inevitably' move to LondonPosted 10 years ago # -
Pintail,
Mandy Rice-Davies.
Yesterday was Rosa Parks' birthday. She dared to hope.
Posted 10 years ago # -
Funnily enough, I went to the same school as Mandy R-D.
Posted 10 years ago # -
Nobody famous went to my school. My niece did, 30 years later, it seems to not have changed much.
Posted 10 years ago # -
@wfb
Banrigh Maighread Ard- Sgiol
Has a writer of romantic fiction listed but as you say, not really famous, however prolific and under slightly changed name has written a dr who novel.
P wick Academy on other hand has a fairly famous painter,,which I must verify and lead singer of Biffy Clyro which might be true, wiki claim tht he lives just down the road from both schools
Posted 10 years ago # -
Ahhhh, if that's who I think it is her dad was a techy teacher.
Posted 10 years ago # -
mr Colgan?
Posted 10 years ago # -
Not impressed with DC today, that was a poor move.
Posted 10 years ago # -
Not had any calls from friends down south asking me to share the love yet
Posted 10 years ago # -
Randomly noticed on Twitter -
"
Dick Graceless (@DickGraceless)
11/07/2013 09:35
Scotland: PLEASE vote for independence. It would give hope to the abused, disenfranchised, robbed people of the North of England."
Posted 10 years ago # -
North west or north east?
Posted 10 years ago # -
Not sure what hope it would give them, seeing that their outlook/political philosophy/whathaveyou would be further outweighed. What price a northern assembly now?
Posted 10 years ago # -
Yes, he used to make guitars in school. I think he had part shares in a music shop near the demolished Tesco and Mecca in Ayr, next door to the Advertiser office. That Mecca was built by Greens, like the Apollo, and had an autogyro landing pad on the roof.
Why did David Cameron have a Glasgow Cally lectern in London?
My cousin in the Forest of Dean sent a message on Facebook to say that she wouldn't be calling. She lives up a hill so Mr Cameron hasn't been to visit her in his wellies yet.
I think the reasoning from people in England is that if we start from similar circumstances and are able to properly fund NHS Scotland, have free education and avoid bombing other countries then it undermines the "there is no alternative" strand of Mr Osborne's austerity. People in England would be able to see a nearby but different model in action.
I don't quite understand why we need more austerity because the same Mr Osborne has told us that his good stewardship has turned the UK economy around and it's all on the up.
EDIT Mecca in Ayr has not been demolished, just the Tesco across the road.
Posted 10 years ago # -
I imagine your cousin knows not to bother calling.
I am quite interested in how many English people in England are even interested? some of them obviously think England is Great Britain. The union flag is often used where the cross of st George would be more apt?
Posted 10 years ago # -
Today is Candlemas. mid winter. Half way twixt solstice and equinox? Maybe.
Anyway Balerno farmer's market today Steph had her crepe stall going. In France Candlemas is Chandeleur. The tradition is to hold a coin in your writing hand and flip the pancake with the other hand. if you manage this then you will have good fortune for the year.
I managed it first go and just then Alasdair Darling walked past. I am just saying .....
Posted 10 years ago # -
So the bit about good luck was obviously an old wives' tale then.
Posted 10 years ago # -
David Cameron actually warned Better Together to stop saying everything would be awful because he reckoned it would be counter productive.
It certainly encourages me to vote yes.
If we really believe we're the stupidest people in Europe - because we're the only ones incapable of running their own country - then what does that say about us?
And, if you don't believe that, and that's the #1 reason to stay in the UK*, then surely you should vote yes?
(* Sadly, the real #1 reason turns out to be money-grubbing, rather than any principled debate about nationhood or identity.)
Posted 10 years ago # -
No, it was good luck. Mr Darling didn't get away with the coin.
And now back to the remaining Christmas Stilton.
Posted 10 years ago # -
Gibbo, I don't believe the people of Scotland are stupid at all, I have complete faith in them recognising the synergy of staying within the Union.
Posted 10 years ago # -
And besides, Scotland is clearly absolutely riddled with nematodes.
Posted 10 years ago # -
"Scotland is clearly absolutely riddled with nematodes"
Are there going to be any manifesto commitments on this?
Posted 10 years ago #
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