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White Paper (THE #indyref thread)

(2915 posts)
  • Started 11 years ago by Morningsider
  • Latest reply from chdot
  • This topic is closed

  1. crowriver
    Member

    Of the options presented to the Scottish electorate, a Yes vote offers the most potential for real, constructive political change. It is as simple as that.

    I know others here feel almost despairingly cynical about the the whole thing. I think that is a mistake, and it's also too easy to wish "a plague on all their houses". It smacks of giving up, of disengagement with civic politics. I reject despair and cycnicism about the referendum: it is too important for that.

    What has really surprised me has been the extent to which ordinary people are actually engaging with the referendum discussion and becoming politically aware and active. This is a real positive force for lasting change for the better, in my view.

    Independence is not a magic elixir; it is not a destination; it is a process. The way to make sure that change is made possible by independence is to engage, to contribute ideas, to question, to challenge, to discuss, to speak to others. That's how real change comes about, and it is starting to happen in Scotland, right now. Look around you and see what is going on.

    We have a chance to change a lot of the ways our government, and thus our society, is run. We should take that opportunity.

    Posted 10 years ago #
  2. Instography
    Member

    Why would labour move to the left? That sounds like you think the SNP is left and Labour needs to catch up.

    I don't think politicians are all the same and I don't think they become similar because that's what the public wants. Politicians are very similar because they are all trying to do the same thing: promote themselves as the most competent managers of a modern capitalist economy. Since there is, at any time, a broad consensus about how to make capitalist economies successful - whether that's post-war Keynesianism, technocratic industrial restructuring, post oil crisis neo-liberalism - the competition between politicians is on (1) basic managerial competence and (2) a loose amalgamation of niche and fringe policies to appeal to particular interest groups.

    So they all appear basically the same but slightly different on some specifics. That's how I see it. Just as my view of the opinion polls starts from the fundamentals of how sampling works, my view of politics starts from how does capitalism work. Since each of the main parties is committed to managing a successful capitalist economy, that in the context of independence they're committed to successfully managing parts of the same heavily integrated capitalist economy and since they all fundamentally agree on what constitutes economic success, the scope for significant variation in either policy or outcomes is very limited.

    Posted 10 years ago #
  3. chdot
    Admin

    "the scope for significant variation in either policy or outcomes is very limited."

    Like washing powder then!(?)

    Plenty promoting of existing brands, some reformulated, some repackaged, Lliberal use of "NEW" and - occasionally - a new alternative.

    And sometimes things shift and there is the liquid alternative.

    Which (presumably) in environmental terms is a backward step (shipping water) but in profit terms a great success(?)

    Posted 10 years ago #
  4. kaputnik
    Moderator

    the scope for significant variation in either policy or outcomes is very limited

    I think there's plenty of scope for wider/better outcomes, even now. There's enough difference between how Holyrood has tried to run Scotland - and Westminster the rest of the UK - to demonstrate that. I think it comes down to more than just there being a common, heavily integrated capitalist system and therefore no scope for difference beyond the economic arena. To make a change in people's lives it depends what you do with the money once you have raised it through that largely common method.

    Even then, not all policies (such as land reform) require masses of central spending on bricks and mortar or wealth redistribution. Some will require more government and legal determination than anything. I'm thinking land reform here as an example. Just because we're economically tied to tUK, it doesn't mean we are tied to having the Scotland where 20 individuals own 20% of the land and sporting estates classify themselves as farmland to qualify for agricultural subsidies that they then spend on "managing" the landscape in a way which suits only the production of game birds to be shot by the highest bidder for a bit of fun.

    Anyway, where was I. Oh yes, I was buying concentrated liquid powder because it seemed cheaper wash-for-wash than the powder on offer. I will now have to recalculate. I want a washing powder that will get my white paper whiter-than-white!

    Posted 10 years ago #
  5. crowriver
    Member

    The answer to which washing powder to use, is, of course, to make your own.*

    Something similar to be said about political choices and parties.

    Not everyone has the patience to take power and responsibility in their own hands, but if you can't be bothered to get involved in doing something different, then don't complain about the disappointing 'brands' on offer!

    * - Other recipes are available. my wife makes hers from ground soap and bicarbonate of soda, IIRC.

    Posted 10 years ago #
  6. steveo
    Member

    I think you have to give Holyrood a little bit of credit. It has a 15 year record of being (in my opinion anyway) much better behaved and more accountable, open and honest than Westminster.

    That is a fair point.

    Though not all of the Scottish MP's were exactly covered in glory with the expenses incident. Which is to say that the Hollyrood system is working well but that is process not people. The people will likely behave just as badly as their allowed to.

    Posted 10 years ago #
  7. steveo
    Member

    Any way, the talk of the individual politian has been a little beside the point I was failing to express above.

    I was trying to say that despite the current parliament's left leaning this is not a guarantee we'll get some largely socialist paradise post partition. Once the SNP disband and the (New Scottish) Conservatives gain some traction I expect we'll end up on a similar path to the rUK.

    I expect we'll probably have Labour and NS Conservatives as the main parties and even have a SNiP in a similar vein to UKIP in response to the number of immigrants we need.Why, because the voters are same and with out the tories to hate on similar tribal dynamics we see in the rest of the country will play out.

    So, meet the new boss, the same as the old boss

    Posted 10 years ago #
  8. I were right about that saddle
    Member

    For the record, I don't think there's anything special about Scotland or the Scots. People of all hues react to the system they are in. The Westminster system is special in my view, in that it embodies a hierarchical, near feudal power structure. Scots who go to Westminster become integrated into this system. Darling flipped his houses and Brown crept into bed with the bankers. Both of them joined in our attack on Iraq with glee.

    A Yes vote is the sole chance for my generation to get away from the Westminster system. The Holyrood system, with the addition of a written constitution, would be one that I would actually want to engage in. I'd also like to see an elected head of state and an upper house picked by lottery from the pool of willing citizens. A boy can dream after all.

    I think anyone who thinks that a No vote will lead to useful constitutional reform is in for a long, hard period of re-education and disillusionment. Debt audit, land value taxation, nuclear disarmament...even electoral reform will not even be distant blips on the Westminster radar.

    Posted 10 years ago #
  9. crowriver
    Member

    I expect we'll probably have Labour and NS Conservatives as the main parties and even have a SNiP in a similar vein to UKIP in response to the number of immigrants we need.Why, because the votes are same and with out the tories to hate on similar tribal dynamics we see in the rest of the country will play out.

    That's a very bleak and pessimistic picture. I have to say I don't think it will work out like that. In fact it is difficult to predict what will happen. Some sort of re-alignment or reconfiguration of the 'main' current parties (ie. SNP and Labour) will probably occur. Some smaller parties may decline (Lib Dems) others may grow (Greens). New parties may be formed.

    What will happen to the Tories in Scotland is a tricky one to call. I don't expect them to become the main opposition nor a part of government. It is conceivable that a new 'conservative' party could be formed and take that role, but it could be a while coming. As for a 'Scottish UKIP', personally I think it unlikely but you never know. Without the UK media gushing about UKIP constantly would they ever have gained an elected representative in Scotland? Unlikely.

    Posted 10 years ago #
  10. steveo
    Member

    The Holyrood system, with the addition of a written constitution, would be one that I would actually want to engage in. I'd also like to see an elected head of state and an upper house picked by lottery from the pool of willing citizens. A boy can dream after all.

    I fail to see the obsession with a written constitution or an elected head of state. Neither have worked in the US and I don't see them working any better here. Either its a figure head (the Queen) in which case its a waste of money or its a second upper house (the US president) in which case too much power lands with one individual and is even less democratic than the Lords and it doesn't get anything done (The US). The written constitution whilst written with good intentions with in a couple of generations ends up a straight jacket or a cosh.

    The Upper House lottery sounds like a good idea.

    I think anyone who thinks that a No vote will lead to useful constitutional reform is in for a long, hard period of re-education and disillusionment. Debt audit, land value taxation, nuclear disarmament...even electoral reform will not even be distant blips on the Westminster radar.

    And thanks to the SNP, (depending on who you ask) there is a better than evens chance that all residents of Scotland will be "punished" for their overplayed hand.

    If you don't believe that independence is the right option then the options are vote Yes regardless of your views in the hope the new Scottish parliament won't be that bad and hope it'll be "better" or vote No and look forward to all the repressed anger that Westminster can muster. Thanks for that guys.

    Posted 10 years ago #
  11. steveo
    Member

    That's a very bleak and pessimistic picture.

    I'm in a bleak, pessimistic, realistic mood.

    Some days I think independence will be better; usually after a Better together mouth piece speaks others I think its a total waste of money and we'll just end up in the same place a few billion deeper in debt so why bother.

    Posted 10 years ago #
  12. I were right about that saddle
    Member

    I fail to see the obsession with a written constitution

    Well, the main point is this; if the constitution isn't written, then the constitution is whatever the powerful say it is.

    In the real world, note the difference in response to the Snowden revelations that we are all under intimate surveillance. In the UK, the government has more or less indicated that the whole thing is none of our business. In the USA there are lawsuits afoot because their right to be protected from unreasonable search or seizure is written down in simple unambiguous language.

    And the preamble to a constitution can be a thing of beauty. As I've said before, one of my favourites is the premble to the constitution of the Fourth French Republic;

    http://www.assemblee-nationale.fr/histoire/constitution-quatrieme-republique.asp

    Posted 10 years ago #
  13. steveo
    Member

    Well, the main point is this; if the constitution isn't written, then the constitution is whatever the powerful say it is.

    The democratically elected powerful. In the US those same can't even attempt to curb gun crime because every one is a legally entitled to hold a gun by some beautiful prose.

    You are the man telling us we need more democracy, binding the hands of future generations and the people they've elected because of something that looks like a good idea now is not more democratic it's your parents telling you when to go to bed when you're in your fifties.

    In the real world, note the difference in response to the Snowden revelations that we are all under intimate surveillance.

    I would suggest that is a cultural response. In the US the first instinct is to sue the UK tends to do nothing even though there is plenty of law on our side.

    Posted 10 years ago #
  14. bdellar
    Member

    Instography - "I can understand that some would prefer everything to be centralised in Edinburgh, around Holyrood rather than centralised around Westminster and the South East."

    I certainly don't want that. If we end up with a smaller version of the UK, I'll not be happy. I want proper local democracy, like large parts of Europe have. I want decent workplace democracy, which is also quite common in Europe.

    I don't want to swap a centralised UK for a centralised Scotland, nor do I think we will. No-one would choose such a set-up as a starting point, just like no-one chooses First Past The Post as a voting system. It's somewhere we've ended up, and that's hard to change. But we could start afresh, and make some sensible choices.

    Posted 10 years ago #
  15. I were right about that saddle
    Member

    Here is the latest love letter from our friends in London;

    https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/what-staying-in-the-united-kingdom-means-for-scotland/what-staying-in-the-united-kingdom-means-for-scotland#a-united-kingdom-a-united-future

    Key features of the United Kingdom? Cheap credit and the National Lottery apparently. Maybe the two are connected and the new economic model is to take out a cheap loan to invest in lottery tickets?

    Posted 10 years ago #
  16. kaputnik
    Moderator

    And thanks to the SNP, (depending on who you ask)

    Now, now, surely you mean "and thanks to all the voters who voted them in as a Holyrood majority in a system designed not to give them a majority". It's not as if the SNP have every tried to hide their nationalist bent, it is in their name after all! ;)

    I do agree with Steveo's sentiment that politicians (or to be honest, most persons in a job) will behave according to the accepted cultural norms of that workplace and according to the letter but probably not the spirit of whatever regulations are in place. And yes it's very true that there were plenty of Scottish MPs scraping at the trough as readily as their English and Welsh colleagues. It's not like there's something more inately saintly and honourable of Scottish politicians than of any of the other home nations. So either Westminster attracts a different sort of candidate to begin with, or its rotten culture spoils the barrel.

    A Holyrood with a weak grasp on accountability and expenses and a strong claiming culture could easily have ended up as another Westminster. But the system was fairly well designed and it's worked out fairly well, with the occassional trumpet of outrage from the Scotchman when somone claims £15 for a desk fan for their constituency office or similar...

    And who knows what political balance might come of a YES vote? It will undoubtedly be vastly more representative of the electorate's will than any UK election usually is. Surely a government that is more representative of the political views of the people is more likely to deliver for their benefit. There's more of a vested interest in doing so.

    I know a lot of people might prefer a more federal UK v.s. an independent Scotland, but realistically it's never going to happen driven from Scotland alone. And if it's not happened in the last 310 years it's probably not about to happen in my lifetime.
    Constitutional reform of the Lords? Labour had many years with big majorities and public will behind them and achieved only a fraction of what they should have. There's no real thirst for that from the commons and why should there be? Why would a majority vote to abolish your own shot at an all-expenses paid, no-obligation emeritus retirement home?

    Electoral reform? Well, the AV referendum was poisoned enough by misinformation and scaremongering that it became clear that a majority of the 42.2% in the UK who could be bothered to vote had no real appeptite for change and were happy to be governed by the politicians they didn't vote for. Maybe people really are happy with that system in the wider UK or just don't care enough?

    Nuclear disarmament? I think we're quite clear where that stands. Not going to happen, even if it's blatantly clear that the UK can't really afford the costs, they daren't lose their seat with the other big boys in the Security Council.

    The Westminster democratic system can on very rare occasions deliver a big and positive reform i.e. the NHS, but it seems one of the things it is best at is preserving the established status quo, at all costs, for the sake of preserving the established status quo.

    I think one of the most refreshing / invigorating things of the referendum campaign is going to be the slow realisation amongs the campaigns that the usual Westminster technique of getting enough of the papers on side and slandering your opponents and drowning the electorate in misinformation just isn't going to guaruntee it this time round. Given that the Sunday Herald alone is in the YES camp with a few fence sitters and everyone else is with a No stance to varying extents and for one reason or another (looking at their ownership it's not hard to work out why for most), it might mean the biggest struggle with this will be for the No campaign. If having nearly all the papers on side and getting big names like Obama, Hilary and the Pope making noises in support of you isn't driving you up in the polls, there's something a bit wrong with your approach. I think they've really miscalculated that it's only Westminster politicians and bankers that keep journalists off many people's "Top 2 least trusted professions" list, so getting Number 3 to big up Number 1 is going probably be very counter productive.

    Give me a realistic chance to change some/all that and more, and I'll put my X in the box every time, yes please.

    (I think this is a record long post for me!)

    Posted 10 years ago #
  17. chdot
    Admin

    "It's not as if the SNP have every tried to hide their nationalist bent, it is in their name after all!"

    Actually it is isn't!

    Posted 10 years ago #
  18. steveo
    Member

    Now, now, surely you mean "and thanks to all the voters who voted them in as a Holyrood majority in a system designed not to give them a majority".

    Actually I probably mean 'thanks to labour and lib dems for running such terrible campaigns that they left them selves unelectable.' I couldn't bring my self to vote for any of them.

    I think part of the problem is they've done a not bad job running the devolved parliament so people have voted them in to the executive. Now how many of those who voted them for Scotland and how many would back independence is the question. If it's not as high as the SNP vote then we're probably going to hurt.

    Posted 10 years ago #
  19. calmac
    Member

    Instography, all that stuff about capitalist economies is lovely prose and basically true. I'd add that capitalism in some form is the only economic system possible in a democracy, because anything else excessively limits an individual's right to live their own life.

    But in the real world, in our neighbourhood, there's Cranhill and there's Finland. Finland doesn't have any Cranhills. And beneath Cranhill are large swathes of the USA, which experiences poverty only comparable in Europe with Moldova and Albania.

    So within the confines of capitalism, in countries like us, lies a very wide range of socio-eocnomic outcomes.

    Clearly, there are much better ways to arrange a capitalist economy than the Anglo-American version.

    "Why would labour move to the left? That sounds like you think the SNP is left and Labour needs to catch up."

    The SNP sits exactly where most Labour voters wishes Labour was. That's what's behind their success.

    Labour in Scotland is poisoned by stuff like this:
    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-27911518

    That's not what Labour members or voters wanted. It's not what they would be if they weren't chasing Labour-Tory swing voters in Milton Keynes South.

    "we'll just end up in the same place a few billion deeper in debt so why bother."

    Can I just ask why you think we'll have more debt, when the UK has more debt than any of the Nordic countries and Scotland's per capita fiscal deficit is much smaller than the UK's?

    "If having nearly all the papers on side and getting big names like Obama, Hilary and the Pope making noises in support of you isn't driving you up in the polls, there's something a bit wrong with your approach."

    I think it's telling that the two shifts in the polls in the past six months have come after heavy-handed external intervention.

    The unionist camp have a very top-down view of the world - they like the big beasts telling us mere mortals how it is. They are comforted by the projection of power and derive confidence from the illusion of stability. It plays to their small and fearful mindset, and their inherent distrust of "ordinary" people.

    "I think part of the problem is they've done a not bad job running the devolved parliament so people have voted them in to the executive."

    Steveo, could you explain that to me please, because I don't think I follow.

    Posted 10 years ago #
  20. calmac
    Member

    "Thats a cop out of the highest order, either you have your principles or you don't."

    Oh really?

    So I assume you never buy any Chinese products then?

    As you acknowledge, we all have to compromise sometimes. It's a question of on what, for what purpose, and at what cost.

    "Its one thing to upset the Americans with little or no repercussions"

    No repercussions? Do you not think Obama and Clinton's comments on independence are connected to Megrahi?

    "Then why was it conditional on him dropping his appeal?"

    It wasn't. That's part of the conspiracy theory.

    He dropped the appeal two days before release but there's no evidence that it was conditional. He may well have felt an appeal wouldn't be the best way to spend his remaining time on earth after he'd been freed.

    "Was there ever a real risk of losing voters? I doubt it really. Bloody nose to Westminster and upsetting the US all vote winners for SNP supporters, no?"

    The SNP can't win elections by appealing to their supporters - there aren't enough of them. They haven't got over 22% in a general election since 1974. They need to appeal to supporters of other parties and of none.

    "Plus it has the added advantage of being the right thing to do."

    An awful lot of people think it was a terrible thing to do.

    Posted 10 years ago #
  21. steveo
    Member

    "I think part of the problem is they've done a not bad job running the devolved parliament so people have voted them in to the executive."

    Steveo, could you explain that to me please, because I don't think I follow.

    I don't think that every vote for the SNP in Holyrood is a vote for independence. But people have voted for them to run the devolved parliament because they're both better than the alternative and have performed most adequately over the last few years.

    Posted 10 years ago #
  22. steveo
    Member

    So I assume you never buy any Chinese products then?

    As you acknowledge, we all have to compromise sometimes. It's a question of on what, for what purpose, and at what cost.

    I'm not the one making very loosely substantiated assumptions that an iScot gov wouldn't kowtow to any foreign nation they disagreed with.

    You've given one instance where a single Scottish government minister has taken an unpopular line, and even then its hardly clear his reasoning. This isn't exactly a great predictor of the future. I maintain that any politician will behave in the same manner if the compromise is getting inward investment and a Yes vote will not get you a suddenly better class of high principled people willing to only deal with people who's views they entirely agree with.

    You have asserted that a No voter is essentially a person would "would wish to be governed by people who stoop to pleading with Chinese autocrats in search of the authority they so patently lack." I maintain that any politician will behave in the same manner if the compromise is getting inward investment and a Yes vote will not get you a suddenly better class of high principled people willing to only deal with people who's views they entirely agree with. mea culpa

    The British government has a long history of dealing with countries of dubious backgrounds and the last act of the Scottish government was to sell its self to England...

    Posted 10 years ago #
  23. steveo
    Member

    Can I just ask why you think we'll have more debt, when the UK has more debt than any of the Nordic countries and Scotland's per capita fiscal deficit is much smaller than the UK's?

    Setting up a new country won't be free and we will borrow to cover it. In the long term we may raise enough to pay off our debts but this probably won't be through "free" oil money and will likely end up in the same pain we'd go through as the UK.

    Posted 10 years ago #
  24. I were right about that saddle
    Member

    a No voter is essentially a person would "would wish to be governed by people who stoop to pleading with Chinese autocrats in search of the authority they so patently lack."

    The quote is mine, not @calmac's. To be clear - my criticism of Mr Cameron is that he attempted to borrow the authority of a foreign autocrat in order to influence a debate which he has previously accepted is between Scots and which is quite clearly a domestic matter in any case. I think he knows that his voice carries almost no authority here, and not just because of the accent which belies his regional origins and social class. Despite being our prime minister, he is quite foreign to many of us. That doesn't make him a bad person, but it does make him ill suited to making decisions on our behalf.

    The many No voters I have met will be motivated by many things, and I do not claim to know what they are. I'd guess they range from narrow self-interest to actual love of the United Kingdom.

    Posted 10 years ago #
  25. steveo
    Member

    @calmac sorry, I miss quoted you. Thanks iwrats.

    In my defence the sentiment remains....

    Posted 10 years ago #
  26. kaputnik
    Moderator

    Actually I probably mean 'thanks to labour and lib dems for running such terrible campaigns that they left them selves unelectable.' I couldn't bring my self to vote for any of them.


    I thought about it again, then I remembered it was the original SNP intention to have the double ballot for both Independence and Devo-Max and it was the other parties / parliaments who fought (succesfully) to bring it to a single issue. So in that respect, we also have everyone but the SNP to thank for marching the electorate to the ballot box on a single issue.

    It's come full circle of course, and now all three "opposition" parties are to one extent or another offering something between Devo-nano through Indy-lite, even though they've made it abundandlty clear in the past that they don't really like that idea. Ruth Davidson indeed was elected to her post on a ticket of no more devolution was she not? They say they are "guaranteeing" it but it's nothing more binding than a politician's word, and contradicted by Scotch Secretary Alistair Carmichael who will shortly be posting every household in the land a glossy wee book full of photos of children skipping through the heather and happy families having 2.4 children and wholesome breakfasts to support reasons to maintain the union. One thing you will not find in that is any promise or guarantee of any more powers.

    And why is Alistair Carmichael going out of his way to contradict his MSP No colleagues we may ask? Because the booklet was written and published ~2 months ago and in that time the Scottish (not Westminster) No Politicians have hauled down their flags on "No means No" and hurriedly run them up a rickety flagpole of "No means Yes" and more devolved powers.

    Actually it is isn't!

    Here was me thinking the "N" was for national?

    Setting up a new country won't be free

    Agree, but it certainly won't cost the £2.8 billion figure quoted made up by Danny "Chief Secretary" Alexander. Scotland already has a good deal of the institutions of state and there's every reason to think/hope they can't be as ridiculously inneficient as Westminster when it comes to setting up the new ones.

    Even a worst-case scenario of what it might cost will be well below our potential contribution of the £20-35bn (or higher) that it will cost to replace Trident, never mind the £135million p.a. share of running costs.

    Sadly I think our ~£600m share of the 2 new Aircraft Carriers (1 of which the UK can't afford to commission and the other of which it can't afford planes for) is already gone down the toilet. When they began to realise they couldn't afford to run the things and wouldn't have planes for them, the MoD slowed production, which added £1.5bn (~35%) to the cost - again much more than it would potentially cost to set up the institutions of state. It's worth bearing in mind the sums of money that Westminster is capable of frittering away on pretending it's still an Imperial power when it comes to putting the costs for an independent Scotland in context.

    I'm pretty sure no YES campaigners are seriously advocating a military arms race and building naval white elephants as a vanity project.

    Posted 10 years ago #
  27. kaputnik
    Moderator

    By the way. This debate is all good and proper and largely civil and constructive as it can be given the ease of taking the written word out of context.

    But...

    I'd seriously encourage anyone and everyone sitting on or near a fence to get along to one of the town-hall / open events that are being held all over the place (there's a particular plentitude Edinburgh). It's really interesting, thought provoking (and persuasive) to sit in a room and listen to well read and eloquent people giving their reasoning behind for what they believe and why. Plenty of events are a-party political and run by regular folks (who aren't members of the a shadow cabinet) who have something they want people to hear. Plenty have beer. And they want to get John Q. Everyman involved and hear what you have to say.

    Twitter and online are great mediums but I don't think they are the ones which will really sway and educate people.

    As an aside, there were some Welsh folks up at an event I was at last night, "fact finding" about how to start their own grass-roots movement. One of them innocently asked "so, are you all SNP then?", which got one of the biggest laughs of the night.

    Posted 10 years ago #
  28. Morningsider
    Member

    I take a different view on the interventions by foreign leaders. I have no idea whether the UK Government asked for them to speak on these issues (they may well have - although I doubt the PM asked the US President to say he supported the UK being in the EU).

    However, it is in the clear national interest of the USA for Scotland to stay in the UK (principally for security issues). Chinese politicians are hardly likely to speak out in favour of separatist movements, for fear of what happens back home.

    Perhaps I'm naive, but I just see two countries trying to protect their interests.

    Kaputnik - I agree about the aircraft carriers, but I have it on good authority that the SNP commitment for Scotland to maintain a squadron of fast jets is equally daft from a military perspective.

    Posted 10 years ago #
  29. kaputnik
    Moderator

    but I have it on good authority that the SNP commitment for Scotland to maintain a squadron of fast jets is equally daft from a military perspective.

    Agree too. Can work on beating them down to a squadron of training biplanes.

    Posted 10 years ago #
  30. chdot
    Admin

    "Here was me thinking the "N" was for national?"

    Yes, not Nationalist - it's an important difference.

    Some people assume it is, some believe it is ('well they may be called the SNationalP but we know it's Nationalist, nudge nudge'), others (even politicians) say it with the "ist".

    I'm sure there are people in the SNP who conform to the 'nationalist stereotype' (you know - blood and soil - or whatever Alistair Darling mumbled) but the rest just 'want what's best for Scotland'.

    As said upthread there are plenty of people voting SNP because of 'competence' and others because they are not 'one of those Westminster parties'.

    After the referendum things will change, how much remains to be seen!

    Posted 10 years ago #

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