CityCyclingEdinburgh Forum » Debate!

White Paper (THE #indyref thread)

(2915 posts)
  • Started 11 years ago by Morningsider
  • Latest reply from chdot
  • This topic is closed

  1. Instography
    Member

    I get how nothing that any unionist could say would be an adequate replacement for independence and that it's tempting to just mock them. But it also seems to me that just as there's something complacent in Lesley Riddoch's 'we've won regardless' there's also something complacent about trashing everything they say as though it were so obviously and self-evidently stupid or duplicitous that no one could possibly be influenced by it.

    I saw two interesting things today. The first was the YouGov poll. While not in itself a huge change, it's significance lies in confirming (to people who follow these things less passionately - like William Hills who shortened the odds on No winning in response) a trend in falling support for Yes. From increasing to stalled to falling. YouGov are serious (in ways that I don't think Panelbase, for instance, are). They routinely get very close on elections. What was most important about it for me was that adding their data to the trend brings the projected trend for Yes to 48% in September. It was 51%.

    The other was an article by Michael Ignatieff in the FT. His opening sentence, "Two prominent British politicians recently asked me for advice about how to stem the rising tide of independence in Scotland. The rough stuff – threatening to keep the Scots out of the pound or out of Europe – had failed. What, they wanted to know, had saved the cause of Canada during the Quebec referendum of 1995 when the secessionists came within a percentage point of victory." It's not a huge surprise that prominent British politicians should look to Quebec for advice. It's that the rest of the article almost spells out how to do it. Not a defence of The Union but a defence of union and a lesson in what an emotional appeal to union might look like.

    I'll accept that neither on their own are decisive in any way and both can be easily dismissed and mocked but, as I say, mocking suggests a confidence that at this stage would be a mistake to entertain even if you felt it was justified. Even if you're sure you're going to win you should act like there's a chance you could lose. That's what the No side have learned - going from 'bayonetting the wounded' to the dry retch of realising they might lose. I'm not sure Yes have really felt that nausea yet. I'm not sure Salmond or Sturgeon, whose campaign has been defined by hubris (really, drafting the constitution before the votes are counted, how presumptuous is that?) are capable of behaving in any other way.

    Posted 10 years ago #
  2. Instography
    Member

    It's rare for one polling company to criticise another but Peter Kellner (YouGov) gets stuck into Survation (and by implication the other online pollsters - Panelbase and ICM, actually everyone but Ipsos MORI) here.

    He points to something that I think I mentioned a while back - the contamination of online panels and the sharing of panels between companies. He says, "In essence, Survation’s sample contains too many passionate, pro-independence Nats and too few passing Nats."

    Worth reading.

    Might also be interested in a little chart I made comparing polls at the time with the 2013 Scottish Social Attitudes Survey.

    Bigger

    Bottom axis - X - shows percentage points difference from the SSAS Yes figure (29% at the time) and Y shows the percentage point difference from SSAS don't know figure (7% at the time). As ever, many reasons for the differences - some possibly timing and some methodological such as question differences between pollsters and the between them and the SSAS but interesting nonetheless. I'll make no more claims for it than that.

    Posted 10 years ago #
  3. chdot
    Admin

    "

    TheScotlandOffice (@ScotlandOffice)
    26/06/2014 12:55
    Scots Sec @acarmichaelmp will answer your twitter #indyref questions next Thurs (July 3) from 1-2. Send in your questions using #AskAC

    "

    Posted 10 years ago #
  4. I were right about that saddle
    Member

    @chdot

    Send in your questions using #AskAC

    My questions to him go by way of the FoI channel.

    Interesting news here about how Westminster policies are formed;

    http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2014/jul/01/-sp-tory-summer-party-drew-super-rich-supporters-with-total-wealth-of-11bn

    I do wonder if, in the eventuality of a No vote, Scotland might not be better treating Westminster as a commercial entity and buying the necessary influence through party donations in the way that foreign countries do. It may be that this would be more effective then sending MPs to Westminster.

    Posted 10 years ago #
  5. I were right about that saddle
    Member

    Interesting piece on the decision not to allow two convicted murderers to vote in September;

    http://lallandspeatworrier.blogspot.co.uk/2014/07/indyref-prison-blues.html

    The 'Peat Worrier', I think, teaches or taught constitutional law at Glasgow University. His views are often very interesting and particular.

    Posted 10 years ago #
  6. chdot
    Admin

    "

    According to Spectator blogger Alex Massie: “You know that strange things are afoot when George Galloway is cheered to the echo by an audience of Edinburgh lawyers, bankers and fund managers.”

    "

    http://www.scotsman.com/news/george-kerevan-say-naw-galloway-tells-voters-1-3463202

    Posted 10 years ago #
  7. Instography
    Member

    The Constitution Unit at UCL makes a point about this as well in reviewing (otherwise very positively) the draft constitution. Since the constitution would incorporate the ECHR, they say:

    The protection of the European Convention on Human Rights would in one sense just continue the present situation. Westminster has bound the parliaments of Scotland, Wales, and Northern Ireland (but not itself) never to act in a way that is incompatible with the Convention. If the answer in Scotland is Yes, it will be interesting to see how the occasionally tetchy dialogue between popular sovereignty and protection of human rights evolves. No doubt one of the first actions of an independent Scottish Parliament will be to give voting rights to prisoners, as demanded by the European human rights court. Or will it?

    http://constitution-unit.com/2014/06/23/we-the-people-of-scotland-do-ordain-and-establish-this-constitution/

    Posted 10 years ago #
  8. chdot
    Admin

    (Robert Peston)

    "

    He discovers that although money matters, it isn't the be all and end all. For many, just as important is what kind of nation Scotland wants to be.

    "

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b049b89z

    Posted 10 years ago #
  9. bdellar
    Member

    Yestival are doing a series of events for Yes, No and Undecided voters at Summerhall next weekend (9th to 12th of July):

    Yestival Edinburgh

    Posted 10 years ago #
  10. kaputnik
    Moderator

    I'm helping out with Yestival.

    Having been to a couple of National Collective events I thoroughly recommend them to anyone who is yes/undecided/wavering or even a "probable no". (I don't think they'll appeal as much to anyone who is NO!, but 2 of the Yestival events are by No speakers.)

    Anyway, they have lots of great speakers along who do a variety of reading / lecturing / debate / poetry / spoken word / song / standup and more. Go along, have a beer, listen, heckle, join in. It's also not a party political thing so while individual people may be card carriers, there's very little of that sort of thing which can put many people off - expect to hear plenty of criticism of the SNP as well as other parties. Even if you don't change the way you vote, they're interesting and entertaining speakers.

    You should reserve spaces online (free) if you fancy it as most of the events are filling up, although if there's space on the day of course people can turn up and get in.

    Posted 10 years ago #
  11. I were right about that saddle
    Member

    @kapunik - here is the utter antithesis of all that Yestival represents;

    http://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/news/politics/independence-referendum-legendary-political-commentator-3802346

    An outburst of Nopprobium, if you will?

    Posted 10 years ago #
  12. Instography
    Member

    Nopprobium. Witty.

    I realise I didn't link to Michael Ignatieff's article. Read that: http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/8070d718-efe5-11e3-9b4c-00144feabdc0.html#axzz36SDLsfvN

    and then re-read the Daily Record article, bearing in mind that one is written for the FT and the other for the Daily Record and then see how Ignatieff's article is the template for Tom Brown's. He says, "If independence happens, my grandchildren will become outsiders and friends over decades will become foreigners. To me and many with cross-border connections that is unthinkable." An emotional appeal to union. Not The Union.

    Keep watching. There'll be another along in a second.

    Posted 10 years ago #
  13. gembo
    Member

    Down here in Devon dorsetshire they are all very pleased if you respond when they ask you which way you are voting that you are going No thanks and we are all better together. I think they are mostly what you would describe as conservatives and unionists. Very friendly blacksmith in the Devon village of branscombe. Also described as lovely customer in the tearoom (could be a first for me, I named the worker's heavier burden than her colleagues and was zen with the fact they only had one haddock left and had run out of eggs on what might have been the first sunny day in a while - potential no voters out in their droves)

    Hoping on my return for an outbreak of senses of humour and people getting bored of being angry or going for it on tinternet

    Posted 10 years ago #
  14. I were right about that saddle
    Member

    @Instography

    Thanks for the link to the FT article - it is rather better written and rather more coherent than the one in the Record.

    It's a question that comes up sometimes when I'm out inciting my neighbours to succession, which it should, as it's really the fundamental one. I have to look back to my grandmother's grandmother to find an ancestor born outside of Scotland. (She was Irish and came to Scotland after some incident that caused her to change her name at the same time.) That said, because of my partner half of my family live outside the UK and speak another language. To see them I have to present a passport to a lady with a gun. Because I have lived and worked in that same country and speak its language at home, part of me very much isn't Scottish. I see that as an advantage for both me and this country, not a problem.

    To me then, the idea that making the Gretna border a national rather than regional one will cause my heart and family to be split assunder is...just plain odd. It's unthinkable. I can't think it. I have multiple identities, and they are fluid; I lost the last vestiges of my British identity over the past ten years. Come to think of it, only my parents and I live in Scotland. I have more family in Canada than I do in England.

    Posted 10 years ago #
  15. kaputnik
    Moderator

    I have "of Scotland born" family in England, Belgium, Canada and Brazil. Cousin in Belgium was born in Scotland, grew up in England, worked in China, has a Nigerian-American husband and is applying for US residency.

    I'm not sure family / love is really that bothered about lines on maps.

    Posted 10 years ago #
  16. Instography
    Member

    Sure. It has no resonance with me either. But I think it's going to be a strand of the remainder of the campaign.

    Posted 10 years ago #
  17. gibbo
    Member

    "If independence happens, my grandchildren will become outsiders and friends over decades will become foreigners"

    What's wrong with foreigners?

    I have friends who are actual foreigners.

    And, when I lived in France, all bar one of my friends were foreigners. (French, Italian, German, South American...)

    And I was a "foreigner" to all bar one of them.

    BTW, the one non-foreigner was a half-English, half-Iranian Londoner, so we were hardly 2 peas in a cultural pod.

    Posted 10 years ago #
  18. chdot
    Admin

    "
    According to a source at Edinburgh Transport, employees should not be using their social media page to endorse any side of the referendum campaign.

    "

    http://www.edinburghnews.scotsman.com/news/transport/tram-cruise-tram-driver-row-over-independence-1-3466774

    Posted 10 years ago #
  19. kaputnik
    Moderator

    Personal opinion expressed on facebook page shocker!

    Posted 10 years ago #
  20. chdot
    Admin

    Not what one expects of one's drivers though.

    Posted 10 years ago #
  21. Instography
    Member

    Credit where it's due, somebody worked hard to stretch that out into a story.

    Posted 10 years ago #
  22. gibbo
    Member

    According to a source at Edinburgh Transport, employees should not be using their social media page to endorse any side of the referendum campaign.

    And then the article gives the actual quote from the spokesman:

    “Employees are of course entitled to express their personal political views outside of work.

    "However, the Transport for Edinburgh Group is politically neutral and our staff, as representatives, are asked not to express political views when on duty or when they can be identified as working for the company.”

    i.e. Company doesn't want to appear to endorse either side, what employees do away from work is their own choice.

    Posted 10 years ago #
  23. I were right about that saddle
    Member

    @Instography

    Just spotted this; "really, drafting the constitution before the votes are counted, how presumptuous is that"

    For what it's worth, my feeling was that the White Paper was the presumptious bit - it's essentially an election manifesto, but we will inform the SNP in due course if we wish them to form our government.

    The constitutional outline on the other hand - this being a constitutional question it seemed quite resonable for a participant to make constitutional proposals. I'd love to see Better Together/No Thanks' constitutional offering.

    Posted 10 years ago #
  24. bdellar
    Member

    Yup, offering an interim constitution seems quite sensible. It shows people what they might be voting for.

    Posted 10 years ago #
  25. kaputnik
    Moderator

    If you are cycling along South Meadow Walk, just past Meadow Place, you will see above the corner window of the ground floor tenement the words "Call for A Constitution". Below which is a poem.

    if I as a writer of poetry
    were called upon to give a form of words
    to model the nation’s behaviour
    it would be this
    ownership obliges
    everyone to respect and to care for
    the sacred
    to respect and to care for
    freedom of conscience
    and to recognise
    the gift of every individual
    to respect it
    care for it nourish it
    to care for and protect communities
    and
    to care for the land
    and wherever
    the land has been abused to restore it
    so that it can support all forms of life
    five principles five fingers on the hand

    (I can't get the tabbing, wrapping to work properly, it's worth clicking on the link below to read it as intended.)

    In case you've ever wondered what this is on about, it's an art project by Angus Reid. There are many copies of it on 20 different alls around Scotland, and this happens to be the Edinburgh one.

    Here are Angus' words on why he started this work;

    This poem was provoked by conversations that have been going on around me for the past 20 years that address a question: what kind of country do you wish to live in?
    As we have no written constitution, which is to say, no form of words that define a contract between a people and a government, certain values are easily over-ridden.
    I don’t like this.
    I believe that we should be able to say when an action is ‘constitutional’ or not.

    I'm sure many people are happy living in a "Constitutional Monarchy" without an actual, clearly defined, legally enshrined constitution, I just can't figure out why.

    Posted 10 years ago #
  26. steveo
    Member

    without an actual, clearly defined, legally enshrined constitution, I just can't figure out why.

    I think we just need to look to our neighbour with a nicely written constitution as to why they're a bad idea. Tying the hands of future generations to the morals and values of the current should be unthinkable after the last hundred years of change in the UK.

    Posted 10 years ago #
  27. I were right about that saddle
    Member

    "we just need to look to our neighbour with a nicely written constitution"

    Good idea!

    http://www.thedanishparliament.dk/Democracy/The_Constitutional_Act_of_Denmark.aspx

    Posted 10 years ago #
  28. kaputnik
    Moderator

    I think we just need to look to our neighbour with a nicely written constitution as to why they're a bad idea.

    Given that there are only a handful of countries without written constitutions (UK included), I think anything you are referring to (not sure if you mean France or Ireland?) is in spite of a written constitution, not because of it. Most countries in the world have a constitution, the bad things that happen in them are not all the fault of the constitution.

    Tying the hands of future generations to the morals and values of the current should be unthinkable after the last hundred years of change in the UK.

    Written constitutions are not dead documents like the Ten Commandments, set in stone and unchanged since biblical times. They are alive and they evolve to suit the needs of the present.

    The UK does have a written constitution in the sense that there are constitutional things that are written down all over the place in laws and acts and whatever, but they are accessible and understandable to only a select bunch of clever constitutional lawyers and academics with the time and patience and braincells to penetrate and make sense of it all. Even the Westminster Government I'm sure needs a small army of lawyers to try and work it all out.

    Given that many parts of the UK "constitution" are hundreds and hundreds (and hundreds) of years old and cover all sorts of important things for the general public like barring Catholics from being monarch and ensuring that unelected bishops can sit in the house of Lords and that the Prince of Wales inherits any unexcuted estates in the Duchy of Cornwall (ad nauseum), I'm not sure how a written constitution is less likely to be "tying the hands of future generations to the morals and values of the current". There was an Orangeman on the BBC today banging on about how the Battle of the Boyne in 1690 "cemented civil and religious liberties" and gave his organisation some sort of legal right to do as it sees fit and make a public song and dance about it - the uwritten constitution is quite open to being used as a "right" to air centuries old dirty laundry in your fellow citizen's face.

    There must be legal libraries full of stuff in the "Constitution" that if we sat down to write a modern constitution from scratch we would be thoroughly scratching our heads as to why on earth a modern country still had these things.

    Cameron's nonsense about teaching "British values" in English schools is an example of this. He likes to bang on about British values and how wonderful they are, but it's just an airy, cotton-wool bunch of notions that don't actually exist.

    From the draft constitution;

    Chapter I – Foundations of the Kingdom
    (1) The Kingdom of Scotland is a free, sovereign and independent commonwealth. Its form of government is a constitutional, decentralised, representative and parliamentary democracy.
    (2) Sovereignty resides in the people of Scotland, who shall exercise their powers indirectly through the election of Parliament and local Councils, and directly through referendums.

    Like I said, I struggle to get to the bottom of why there's a clamour to live in a system that the man/woman in the street can neither easily access nor understand the basic rights and principles of the country he/she lives in.

    Posted 10 years ago #
  29. Morningsider
    Member

    Probably worth noting that the draft "Scottish Independence Bill" only makes provision for transitional constitutional arrangements should there be a yes vote. The Bill requires a full constitutional convention to be established after a yes vote, which would draft the formal constitution.

    You can find the draft Bill here:

    http://www.scotland.gov.uk/Publications/2014/06/8135/0

    Posted 10 years ago #
  30. steveo
    Member

    All perfectly civilised and rudimentary and doesn't actually do anything which isn't covered by existing UK law.

    Also note the Danish constitution has been rewritten by popular vote over the last 150 years so how does it differ from allowing the elected government of the day enact policy?

    (Note my understanding is based on a fairly rudimentary understanding of Danish law and a quick reminder from Wiki)

    Posted 10 years ago #

RSS feed for this topic

Topic Closed

This topic has been closed to new replies.


Video embedded using Easy Video Embed plugin