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White Paper (THE #indyref thread)

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Started 11 years ago by Morningsider
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chdot
Admin

"As I have said before if SNP and other separatists were honest, set up a republic and stipulated a high taxation economy like Denmark then I would vote for that. However, this is not an option."

The last sentence is not strictly true.

I'm sure the Greens and various socialist factions would like that. The Labour Party (in Scotland) ought to want some of that and say so - but we are not there and don't look likely to be.

I think it's safe to say that "However, this is not an option" IS true within the UK.

There is no guarantee that after a Yes vote the SNP will win the next Holyrood election. I would like to see more 'other' parties - as happened in the first Scottish Parliament election.

Logically the Labour Party should be the largest party after the next Holyrood election on the basis that last time 'Labour voters' 'lent' their votes to the SNP as the party most likely to get more devolution which is (apparently) 'what the Scottish people want'.

Labour should do well if there is No vote too.

I suspect that it won't for many/various reasons.

It's possible that after the referendum 'Labour heavyweights' (mostly existing MPs) could decide that their future was Holyrood.

This might work - or backfire spectacularly.

"however, posters on this forum said they did not think there is anti English sentiment."

This forum is spectacularly unrepresentative - as is Edinburgh in relation to the rest of Scotland (so are most politicians... Though it's probably better when they are trying to show leadership, rather than be representative'!).

"I found this surprising as I used to come across it all the time when I lived West of the Pecos. if you hate the f'ing English clap your hands. Settler Watch, Scottish Republican Army etc. Maybe this is all a thing of the past."

It's probably not entirely "past".

I don't want this to sound unduly crass, but I genuinely wonder if the recent troubles at Rangers have subdued things at all(?)

Posted 10 years ago #
gembo
Member

just been listening to a piece on R4 about English whisky (I have had some in Suffolk, also a welsh malt in north Wales)

There is a whisky called The One made from blends from all around GB &NI (will check if any Jamesons in it).

The journalist asked if the producer would send some to Alex Salmond and he said he would.

This got me on to googling the lyrics of One by U2 which redirected somewhere quite nasty however, I am still going with the view of Mr Bono Vox

We got to carry each other

On sports teams, I make no comment, whatever anyone wants it should all be a bit of fun. I notice the Scottish football team is not so great and the rugby wallahs managed a last minute victory against Italy.

on the Gers, there are still a lot of stunned supporters trying to figure how this could have happened. there was very strong anti Hibs sentiment expressed in the Grey Horse the other night by Stadler, Waldorf and Stadler. I made a joke about the Gers which was greeted by silence. in former times I may not have made the remark or I might have made it and then been asked to leave. I am massively against sectarianism and see some change for the better following the Ibrox imbroglio but will be business as usual in a few seasons.

Posted 10 years ago #
chdot
Admin

"We got to carry each other"

That's about Internationalism and humanityism - which is entirely where you are coming from.

The politics of these isles is somewhat different - not suggesting that you would try to deny that.

I think it is perfectly reasonable to say 'stick with what we have and try to make it better'. Laudable.

I think there are many people in Scotland now believing that the London-centric media/political money market world is beyond saving.

Not beyond bailing-out of course - which has significantly affected (benefitted?) Scotland (mostly Edinburgh).

I think you fear Scotland becoming insular/parochial and - perhaps, (in the back of your mind), nastier.

Perhaps.

The future is unwritten.

I don't know how insular/parochial Denmark, Sweden, Norway, Iceland etc. are (perhaps more than we would like to know). Their choice(?)

I'm sure, to some extent, some of us would like our politics to be like The West Wing or Borgen!

There is no guarantee that an independent Scotland would be better, there seem to be diminishing differences on offer - but 'more of the same' can't really be that attractive??

More Con/Lab austerity. The rich get stupidly richer and the poor will have their food banks taken away - 'because they just encourage people to need them'.

There was a time when Scotland traded directly with Europe via Forth ports - coal, salt, pantiles etc!

I blame the railways...

Meanwhile in Ukraine.

Will President Salmond have his own zoo?

Posted 10 years ago #
chdot
Admin

Diametrically opposed views (globally).

"

We complied a list of the top 10 hopes and dreams that young Australians harbour for this country, and beyond. Here’s what they’re hoping for.

A way more equal Australia and world

Stable environmental elements

Much less stress on school results and to have time to experience

Take the focus off of materialism

Jobs and careers that are flexible and rewarding

Relationships over home ownership

Be part of a more global dialogue – no more “bogan” Australia

Less racism and sexism – and a big YES to gay marriage, Indigenous rights and refugees – in other words, a lucky country for all

More generational acceptance of the web as a tool for opportunity and interaction with the world

The time and space to dream a bit

"

http://www.theguardian.com/culture/australia-culture-blog/2014/feb/22/perth-festival-the-10-things-australian-teenagers-really-want?

Posted 10 years ago #
Charterhall
Member

I'm just so depressed about this. I love Scotland, I've lived for 20 years and am married to a Scot. But following partition Scotland can no longer be my home, both my wife and I are likely to lose our jobs, the value of our house will plummet to a fraction of its current value, a socialist government will raise taxes to fund ever more generous benefits to the unwaged and big business will leave in droves. And heaven knows what is going to happen to the currency and the implications of that on savings and pensions. And all this to fuel the vanity of the SNP. What a waste.

Posted 10 years ago #
chdot
Admin

I'd say that was extremely pessimistic!

I think (it was) you said way-up thread that you were looking forward to a Conservative government in Scotland.

I replied that there was more chance of that in an independent Scotland.

Certainly more possibility of people voting for conservative candidates once the 'tartan Tories' and the 'slight-tartan former socialistic(ish)' parties have decided what they stand for!

Posted 10 years ago #
chdot
Admin

I understand the notion of 'better together', but if England becomes free of subsidy-junky-Scotland, surely its economy will boom like never before?

Posted 10 years ago #
SRD
Moderator

Friend/colleague of mine who is Polish by origin, but been here long enough to do a few degrees, was harassed on a packed out Lothian bus on Thursday. Chap told him to 'go back to Ukraine' and started kicking him. No one did a thing.

he said the only other experience of xenophobia he'd encountered was some burly Scottish chaps who tried to turf him out of a tesco because they thought he was English.

Perhaps slightly off topic. But inspired to add this in context of discussion of possible waning of sectarianism.

Posted 10 years ago #
Nelly
Member

@SRD Shocking.

Most people sadly are too scared to intervene.

I have intervened in the past and usually find the bullies have zero backbone.

Helps being a 6 foot male but can understand women ( for example ) being cautious.

Posted 10 years ago #
PS
Member

How do you feel about the EU being so unpopular in England? I've noticed more St George's crosses down there in the last few years. I don't even mean on civic buildings, where we tend to go in the summer, Dorset, Devon, Hampshire, I see them in gardens.

I'm not sure there's a causal link between EU unpopularity and St George crosses. The flags got a lot more common on the back of heavy newspaper coverage of the likes of Euro 96. Plus, it's a lot cheaper and easier to acquire a flag than it used to be. Besides, there are loads of St Andrew's crosses on show round here, but Scotland is broadly pro-EU if all the polls are anything to go by.

I'm rather taken with gembo's internationalism. Having spent half my life in Cumbria, half in Edinburgh, from a family made up from Borderers from both sides of the line on the map, I don't see any difference between folks on either side. In fact, people in Hawick have more in common with people in Kendal or Carlisle than either has with a significant chunk of Edinburgh or Aberdeen.

Posted 10 years ago #
wee folding bike
Member

I don't understand how an internationalist can vote No. That's a vote for British Nationalism. I would understand abstention.

There might be lots of saltires in Edinburgh but they are rare in the west. In the south of England I saw lots on houses, almost like in the US.

I lived in London for a few years but it didn't really make me a Londoner. It's handy to know your way around the place without having to use a map. I might not get right to an unfamiliar street without an AtoZ but I can get close.

Posted 10 years ago #
gembo
Member

my internationalism strts by joining things up. So I want a joined up Britain and Ireland and I want this to keep both islands in the European Union. Then I want the EU to pay it's colonial debt. The Germans owning Greece is not quite right, so I think my internationalism has a long way to go but it starts with avoiding separation.

Posted 10 years ago #
chdot
Admin

http://www.heraldscotland.com/mobile/politics/referendum-news/battle-rages-on-as-westminster-cabinet-heads-for-scotland.23507843

Posted 10 years ago #
chdot
Admin

@Gembo I wonder how many people share your view of a new-world-order.

There's a logic in opposing any break-up, but to some degree any status quo is artificial.

Maybe international/geo politics is more like a dynamic jigsaw where not all the pieces fit together properly 'even in the right place' and have to have an interim removal and re-shaping??

Posted 10 years ago #
cc
Member

@gembo England will vote to leave the EU so I'd say you're on a hiding to nothing there.

Posted 10 years ago #
gembo
Member

@cc

Yes a hiding to nothing that feels familiar

Sometimes a common cause produces a unified response and a result of a positive nature, but rare for sure.

one time jean Marie Le Pen was coming to Aedinburgh and there was a call for all people opposed to fascism to attend an open meeting I think might have been at the art college of all places. I went along as a non-aligned lefty and the focus was all on preventing him from arriving, rather than the differences between different groups on the left. Summer of 1993. Probably the last time I wasn't on a hiding to nothing.

Posted 10 years ago #
chdot
Admin

"
Yes or No? Scotland decides.

What Scotland Thinks provides impartial, up-to-date information on public attitudes to Scottish independence including the latest Scottish Social Attitudes survey findings. It is run by ScotCen Social Research with funding from the Economic and Social Research Council.

"

http://whatscotlandthinks.org

Posted 10 years ago #
chdot
Admin

From up thread -

"Most people sadly are too scared to intervene.

I have intervened in the past and usually find the bullies have zero backbone."

"

Ministers will wage war on hate crimes after more shocking footage emerges of a racist thug's attack on two bus passengers

"

http://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/news/scottish-news/video-ministers-wage-war-hate-3175276

Posted 10 years ago #
crowriver
Member

Quite ironic that U2 are held up as advocates of togetherness in the UK context. Of course, Bono, The Edge, et al are citizens of independent Eire, and very proud to be Irish. They also sang a song about Bloody Sunday, which was a comment on the brutal, repressive and murderous side of the British state. Folk who get all sentimental about Britishness tend to ignore the darker aspects of Unionism as an ideology, the fact it is based upon conquest and subjugation of others. It's even there in a verse of the national anthem. The forcible settlement of Ireland by the British (including many Scots protestants) is at the root of sectarianism, as we know. It's a form of British fascism which is much more deeply rooted and popular than the more recent BNP/EDL varieties.

I genuinely cannot understand those who claim that even now, with the Empire long gone, and 'Great' Britain locked into gradual decline, Unionism is somehow a force for positivity, enlightenment and good. What we witness is rather the desperate scrabbling of a former imperial power trying to hold on to its last possession of any great worth. To vote to prolong this deathly embrace seems to me a futile act of denial.

The positive act is to choose to start something different, to refuse to be beholden to the ancien regime and take power and control for ourselves.

Posted 10 years ago #
I were right about that saddle
Member

@gembo - Don't worry! I'm supple enough for a good argument to swing me round, 95% or not...that debate is exactly what we need.

I like your point; "...if SNP and other separatists were honest, set up a republic and stipulated a high taxation economy like Denmark then I would vote for that."

I guess I'd fall into your 'other seperatists' camp. I do want a Scottish Republic, and I do want a totally reformed tax system. Not necessarily high tax, but tax that's hard to avoid and directed at the wealthy - such as land value taxation, which does indeed operate in Denmark - and tax spend on those in need, whoever they might be, and on socially useful projects.

The SNP have other ideas, but this vote isn't about the SNP. It's about whether or not we have a political system in which we can engage or not. It's a vote to have a vote.

Honestly, I'm a bit saddened by your reference to house prices. I think I know what you mean - you want to pass on wealth to your children, because at the moment that's the only way they can succeed in life. The downside is that for your house to increase in price in a 'free' market, demand for housing must outstrip supply. I don't want to live in a country where people find it hard to get shelter from the elements. There has got to be a better way of looking after each other than that.

There are well-argued rebuttals to most of the scare stories available;

http://wingsoverscotland.com/reference/

http://bellacaledonia.org.uk/

and some really positive ideas for the future of Scotland;

http://allofusfirst.org/

If we vote 'no', we get this;

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/politics/labour/10598306/Bash-the-rich-and-you-deprive-us-of-what-their-taxes-pay-for.html

Posted 10 years ago #
gibbo
Member

And heaven knows what is going to happen to the currency and the implications of that on savings and pensions. And all this to fuel the vanity of the SNP. What a waste.

Surely, if Scotland votes yes, it'll be because the people of Scotland want independence.

To suggest they'd be voting yes in order to "fuel the vanity of the SNP" seems like a strange interpretation of people's motives.

Posted 10 years ago #
PS
Member

I'm not convinced that supporting the union necessarily means you support the forcible settlement of Ireland, or any other dark aspects of history.

Posted 10 years ago #
chdot
Admin

From today's Sunday Herald.

OCRed and posted in full because it doesn't seem to be on-line.

"
23.02.14 Business news

8000 geeks are missing: IT specialist shortage is threat to Scottish financial services industry

By James Hamilton

SCOTLAND'S chronic shortage of skilled IT professionals is threatening the country's ability to compete in financial services, according to the new head of a leading recruitment agency.

Martin Ewart, formerly managing director of Logica in Scotland and head of group technology at HBOS, last month took over as Head Resourcing's chief executive from founder Paul Atkinson, who stays on as non-executive director.

The Scot's appointment is being presented by the chairman as an attempt to increase Head's ability to address the acute shortage of IT professionals. It is estimated that as many as 8000 more qualified personnel than are available will be needed in Scotland over the next few years.

Ewart said: "We're facing a shortage of talented people working in IT in financial services, so we now have to spread the net wider to get the best people. I see my job with Head Resourcing as helping the management team realise this expansion across the UK. We'll be undertaking a number of initiatives to help find the right people.

"The recruitment industry plays a pivotal role because many of the jobs within the major banks and financial houses are for IT contractors.

"Supporting these contractors has been a significant part of our expansion. But IT industry analysts are predicting that Scotland will be short of around 8000 key IT people in the next few years. I can see there will be a battle for the best talent."

Ewart said that Head would be working in tandem with Skills Development Scotland, the Scottish Government and universities to channel more young people and graduates into IT careers.

"By all means, let's have our humanities graduates in history, media, and film studies and English, but all the major competitive economies are still investing massively in engineering and computing. That message has to remain firmly at the front of everyone's mind."

Ewart said that the banks and financial houses were slowly but surely recovering - and will need a host of qualified people to help them expand.

"The recession battered our banks and recruitment dried up on big projects. But we have new players emerging - such as Sainsbury's Bank, Tesco and Virgin Money - and these financial institutions require highly-qualified people in Scotland to help them with increasing regulation and a smarter usage of the existing technology, process and systems."

With a turnover of £36 million. Head Resourcing, was founded by entrepreneurs Atkinson and Gordon Adam.

A review by IT industry group ScotlandlS last autumn concluded that lack of skills threatened to scupper Scottish employers' expansion plans, finding that more than 70% of companies in digital technologies plan to employ more people in the coming year while 58% will be looking for graduates to promote growth.

"

So either Scottish IT/Finance is assuming a No or doesn't fear a Yes.

The companies mentioned are not Scottish and probably already have their HQs south of the border (or offshore??).

So a Yes would mean all these jobs (and people?) and investment would be moved elsewhere for sound business reasons, or spite - or not?

Posted 10 years ago #
PS
Member

The recession battered our banks

I think it was more like self-abuse to be honest.

As for what large corporates would do, I doubt it would be a dramatic exodus, but it may be a more gradual withdrawal, or it may be nothing at all. It will depend on customer perception, director perception (will English citizens choose to "buy English" rather than "buy British"?), tax treaties, all sorts of stuff. No one knows.

Most corporates are hedging their bets. Why stick your head above the parapet only to have it shot off? And ultimately they will all just wait and see what happens. In the event of a yes they will then decide whether it is worth their while investing in an independent Scotland and that decision is mainly going to be based on the value that can be delivered to shareholders, because that's how companies work.

Another thing I don't know the answer to is where would the tax revenue go if a company shifted its business or decision-making to England. I presume that means the company becomes domiciled in England, so that's where it would pay its corporation tax?

Posted 10 years ago #
chdot
Admin

"so that's where it would pay its corporation tax?"

Yes, but -

'As we all know' multinationals (especially in front of Commons' committees) make a big deal of 'paying all relevant local taxes'.

Maybe (with or without independence - for Scotland in this case) Governments will work together (more) to reduce opportunities for tax avoidance by multinationals - especially ones that are given grants to set up in the first place!

Maybe there will be a Yes vote and maybe the SNP will continue in power and reduce Corporation Tax such that Scotland becomes more attractive than Luxembourg and Charlotte Square is filled with brass plates again.

The future is unwritten.

Posted 10 years ago #
Charterhall
Member

I find that report from Martin Ewart/Head Resourcing totally unbelievable. HBOS and the other banks led the way in replacing tens of thousands of UK IT workers with lndians, a process that is still very much in play. I work in the IT department of a bank and well over half the people I speak with on a day to day basis are Indian.

Posted 10 years ago #
chdot
Admin

"I find that report from Martin Ewart/Head Resourcing totally unbelievable."

Well he is promoting his recruitment company!

"HBOS and the other banks led the way in replacing tens of thousands of UK IT workers with lndians, a process that is still very much in play."

That's been happening for ages (not just in IT/banking - shipbuilding etc. etc.) It's to do with 'globalisation' not the possibility of a change of governance on the periphery of Europe.

There are still skilled/well paid jobs in IT in the UK, some are in Scotland. A disproportionate number seem to be in Edinburgh - can't be because it's a low wage/cost of living city.

Plenty of jobs have been lost due to the 'banking crisis' - and more have been announced.

IF there is independence and jobs move, 'separation' will be a useful excuse (for some).

Think of all the extra jobs needed to run the Scottish economy!!

There are far more threats to the commercial status quo than whether a government based in Edinburgh has more powers to raise its taxes and decide how the money is spent.

Assuming that Scotland stays within the EU it may or may not be paying more 'in' than now.

Might as well assume that status quo - it's simpler than assuming that a future Westminster government will/won't take UK/rUK out!!

Is that uncertainty causing concern in the IT/banking world?

Posted 10 years ago #
Roibeard
Member

The forcible settlement of Ireland by the British (including many Scots protestants) is at the root of sectarianism, as we know.

Without intending to drive a CCE thread off topic, I'm not sure that I recognise this (single) root...

Roibeárd/Robert
From the province of Ulster, and a hybrid of the pesky natives and the Scots planters.

Posted 10 years ago #
chdot
Admin

@ Pintail

P.s.

I'm sure your employer isn't about to say 'don't worry, Yes or No your job is safe'.

I'm also sure that on the day after a No vote they won't be going 'thank goodness that nonsense is over, now your job is safe'.

Posted 10 years ago #
crowriver
Member

Without intending to drive a CCE thread off topic, I'm not sure that I recognise this (single) root...

I can be accused of an oversimplification of what is a coomplex history: I should have laid a caveat in terms of that historic process being largely the root of the manifestations of sectarianism we see in our current era. There's also the argument that in places like the west of Scotland and English cities such as Liverpool and Manchester it constitutes a (rather long lasting) xenophobic reaction to waves of immigration from Ireland in the C19th.

A broader context could locate other roots in the protestant reformation across Europe (which came late to Scotland), and also the Tudor conquest of Ireland. Difficult to deny however that for instance the plantation of Ulster was designed as a specifically 'British' colonisation, which began only once the union of the crowns was in place. Indeed it has been argued that Scots were favoured as 'tenants' to reassure them they had not lost out with the royal court moving to London.

One can question whether any of this is relevant today, but I'd say it is certainly a factor in forming certain traditions and aspects of a British identity.

Posted 10 years ago #

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