Rosie, according to the top of the front page there are nearly 10,000 topics on the forum. Can you really not tolerate just one topic on one of the most important things in Scotland right now, which will be decided six weeks from today?
CityCyclingEdinburgh Forum » Debate!
White Paper (THE #indyref thread)
(2915 posts)- Started 11 years ago by Morningsider
- Latest reply from chdot
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Posted 10 years ago #
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All right - fair enough.
Posted 10 years ago # -
Ta.
Anyway, it'll all be over soon...
Posted 10 years ago # -
"
Scottish Labour leader Johann Lamont said that the “rest of the UK will have the sovereign right to say No” to the SNP’s plan to share the pound in a formal currency union if Scots vote for independence.
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Posted 10 years ago # -
I think this thread is doing a great job of containing the indyref discussion in one place, so you can either dip into it or not as you choose.
Posted 10 years ago # -
Posted 10 years ago # -
Not on a Lothian bus.
Posted 10 years ago # -
Wit and wisdom is a CCE certainty.
Posted 10 years ago # -
I suspect Alex Salmond (or his advisors) has read this -
"
TRUTH is usually the first casualty of political battles, as it is of war. I believe that Scotland and England are individually stronger for being part of the UK, but 25 years in currency markets tell me that the No campaign’s argument that Scotland cannot keep the pound is false.
...
One of the few compensations of watching politicians make false debates out of serious issues is the irony of seeing Alex Salmond champion sterling and George Osborne purvey the merit of bailing out banks. Perhaps the heat and fury is about positioning ahead of separation negotiations. But this would seem to be a defeatist tactic that could backfire.
If the English position is that the Bank of England is not an asset to be shared, an independent Scotland, like other newly-independent states before, will feel it can legitimately disown any share of past debts. Further, pretending that England has nothing to lose, and Scotland much, is one falsehood that helps to distract from the other – that independence is mainly about dividing up North Sea oil and gas.
"
http://www.cityam.com/article/1394565144/big-independence-lie-scotland-could-keep-pound
Posted 10 years ago # -
That distinction between "using the pound" and "in a currency union" evades many people but you'd expect better from someone with that CV.
Legally, the BoE is not an asset to be shared (see Lawyers for Yes) and an independent Scotland can't legally disown a share of the debt because legally it doesn't own a share of the debt. That's been confirmed by UKG.
Posted 10 years ago # -
So hard to get 'facts' -
"
SCOTLAND’S major banks would be forced to quit the country after independence if a Panama-style approach to using the pound without the UK’s agreement is adopted, leading economists have warned.
UK regulators and the banks’ shareholders would insist that major institutions seen as “too big to fail”, like RBS and Lloyds, would need to be located in the UK in order to have the Bank of England standing behind them as “lender of last resort”, according to a report by the National Institute of Economic and Social Research (NIESR).
But a new Scottish currency could allow the fledgling state to guarantee the country’s financial giants and provide real economic freedom from London.
Alex Salmond has come under pressure this week to set out his Plan B on currency if a monetary union with the UK is rejected. A so-called “dollarisation” approach, which would see Scotland simply use the pound informally, is widely seen as the preferred alternative.
But today’s research warns the estimated £80 billion of debt which Scotland would inherit from the UK would make it difficult for a fledgling Scottish Government to build up the reserves to bail out the massive financial sector.
Alex Salmond’s threat to walk away from this debt could also see Scotland frozen out of the international markets and struggle to gain EU membership, according to report co-author Dr Angus Armstrong
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Posted 10 years ago # -
Opinion -
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In a sense, both of the key debating moments of the night touched on this question of confidence, and of belief in Scotland’s capacity to chart its own future. Alex Salmond struggled to persuade voters to share his sunny certainty that, after a Yes vote, continuing free trade with Scotland will matter enough to a London government to make a shared currency inevitable. Alistair Darling oddly refused to endorse David Cameron’s statement that Scotland could be a successful independent country, if it chose.
Yet the truth – made overwhelmingly clear by Tuesday night’s brittle and disappointing debate – is that 21st century citizens cannot and should not place their confidence in any top-down political structure, or in any one political leader; nor, indeed, should they expect politicians to provide answers to questions about a future which is essentially unwritten.
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http://www.scotsman.com/news/joyce-mcmillan-yes-or-no-future-is-ours-to-write-1-3502946
Posted 10 years ago # -
Re: the NIESR, its Director, Angus Armstrong, seems to have taken upon himself the burden of writing copious quantities of reports on Scottish independence scenarios (all there to read if you can use Googol). As I'm not an economist, I don't feel qualified to comment in detail on his claims. Neither am I a lawyer, so I won't presume to know better on constitutions, treaties etc. However while browsing the NIESR reports by Dr. Armstrong on their site this morning I came across this comment. I'll not comment further but leave it here:
"Robert Peffers • 8 months ago
Are not the authors of this article forgetting their basic English Language education?
The Word Kingdom refers to ONLY a Royal Realm, and while that royal realm may indeed be a country, it may just as well be part of a country or two or more countries. Thus the Queen of the United Kingdom is Queen of four United Kingdom countries and also three non-UK crown protectorates not to mention being head of state for independent countries all over the World. Thus we must consider what the United Kingdom actually is. It is, from its inception, a bipartite union of ONLY two Kingdoms as the 1707 Kingdom of England had annexed the Princedom of Wales in 1248 and all Ireland in 1542. The Treaty of Union's first three,'Articles of Union', were Article I, the Union of the two Kingdoms, Article II the succession and accession of the union throne and Article III the formation of an entirely new Parliament of that United Kingdom as a Parliament of the new United Kingdom. In short a country is not a Kingdom and it is the parliament, or political union, that the Scots will disunite, not just leave behind. Furthermore as a fully sovereign kingdom and partner the Scots are joint owners of the currency, assets, debts, and the armed forces, the treasury, the civil service and, as it was Nationalised in 1946, the Bank of England. Now perhaps someone might care to point out where, in that treaty of union, there is mention of countries? Where too is there a mention of the two Kingdoms being other than equals? From whence then comes the British Nationalist claims including a share out on a population basis?"Posted 10 years ago # -
Dr. Armstrong's bio below. Read what you like into the fact that, prior to joining the NIESR, he worked for HM Treasury. It is interesting that this fact is not mentioned on the NIESR web site however...
"Angus Armstrong is the Director of Macroeconomics at the National Institute of Economic and Social Research (NIESR) since September 2011. Previously, he was Head of Macroeconomic Analysis at Her Majesty's Treasury from mid-2004, where he was closely involved in the UK's response to the financial crisis, including representation at G20 Officials Meetings. Prior to joining the Treasury, Armstrong was Chief Economist Asia and a Managing Director at Deutsche Bank. He is an Adjunct professor at Imperial College Business School. His research interests are the application of finance to family decision making and comparative macro-financial systems.
Armstrong studied at Imperial College London, Harvard University, and MIT, and holds a Ph.D. in Economics."
Oh and his summary bio on the Guardian web site somehow fails to mention his time at the Treasury during the Brown/Darling years. It does however mention that Dr. Armstrong "is a House of Lords special adviser on Scottish independence."
Posted 10 years ago # -
@crowriver
All true, that stuff, but it's unlikely to impress anyone who hasn't yet made up their mind. For a master class in influencing this group, look at the current media full court press. Expressions of love from one side;
are combined with hints of menace from another;
Legal treaties are not brought into play. These people know what they are doing, they have played this game many times before.
Posted 10 years ago # -
I am in Leicester today to point out the British Psychological Society might have to change its name.
Taxi driver had a woman from fife in his cab yesterday. She was telling him all about how Alex salmond had won a debate on telly the night before.
That would be stretching truth to the point of untruth?
Posted 10 years ago # -
@gembo
Out canvassing in a popular quarter of Edinburgh last night I expected to be drawn into debate chat. No one mentioned it. At all. I was very surprised.
Topics that did come up;
* Racism between different elements of the working classes
* The partition of Sudan
* The effect of the monarchy on Scotland
* The works of Jean-Paul SartreThe revolution will not be televised....indeed the media people seem not to quite appreciate what's going on.
Posted 10 years ago # -
What did they say about Sudan?
I don't think there are actually many similarities, but have just been hearing a harrowing first person account of the recent fighting from a guy who is supposed to be Addis serving as a mediator between the two sides. He's still committed to the new state though.
Posted 10 years ago # -
"21st century citizens cannot and should not place their confidence in any top-down political structure, or in any one political leader; nor, indeed, should they expect politicians to provide answers to questions about a future which is essentially unwritten."
Up to a point. But when politicians are expecting people to make significant, irrevocable (at least in the medium term) and potentially life-changing decisions they have an obligation to back up the request for support with clear answers on the implications. Citizens of any century can reasonably expect them to give answers that are as full and honest as they can be. And politicians should reasonably expect to be electorally punished if they don't.
This applies to both sides - Alex Salmond failed on the currency and Alastair Darling failed on new powers. Both issues that they need to convince people on and issues that will stick around to hurt them until the referendum.
Posted 10 years ago # -
@SRD
Sudanese chap had been living here for seven years. We talked about the religious divisions there and the quite different nature of our current beef. He appreciates greatly the welcome that he has received in Scotland, but of course with his African perspective sees less difference between the constituent elements of the UK than we do. Der Narzißmus der kleinen Differenzen?
I really enjoyed talking to him, and the proper African handshake when we left his doorstep will be a highlight of the campaign for me whatever happens.
Posted 10 years ago # -
Proposal at BPS to rename itself The Royal Psychological society so that should cover both outcomes.
What are the odds on a draw? (See episode of Porridge which was about a boxing contest and featured the Scottish actor Tony Osoba)
Posted 10 years ago # -
@gembo
'British' also covers both options....
Posted 10 years ago # -
No:Yes 2:1
Posted 10 years ago # -
'British' is that differnt from British.?
The BPS is professional body for psychologists in England, Scotland, Wales and Notthern Ireland. if Scotland was a separate nation such as Republic of Ireland that would change. There might even be some psychologists wanting to set up a Scottish Psychological Society.
I wouldn't have to go to Leicester to discuss minutiae.
Taxi driver got lost so I had tour of Leicester. Saw filbert street and the new stadium across from filbert street and also Gary Lineker road.
I see mick jagger has urged us to stick together . Though technically that should be al green but to stretch it a bit, now he needs us more than ever. Yes campaign should get Keith, as he likes to disagree with Mick.
To extend the metaphor - now I like the proclaimers but they are not the Rolling Stones (the sixth stone Ian Stewart may have had Scottish roots?) or David Bowie.(he spent a week in the new town with Lindsay kemp in 1971).
Posted 10 years ago # -
@gembo
'Britain' has seven letters, Britain is an island? I think British would be safer for the society. I quite often hear 'we're voting Yes, but what's that with the Queen?'. Have to explain that I favour a Scottish workers republic and will happily join them in arguing for one.
It was the Duke of Westminster's son in law that asked Jagger to ask us to stay together. Not clear who asked Andy Puddicombe to join Jagger in asking us to stay together. He lives in California and has a degree in circus studies. Doesn't do circus though. Not sure he likes circuses.
@chdot
Nice photo. The only other A4 No poster that I know of is in Spylaw Road. Grounds of house so big it's hard to actually see it. Yes voters much more visible than No - @Instography will have mahogany and brass kittens if anyone suggests using poster spots as surrogate for voting outcome. Good to see people getting involved though - it's the indifferent that I will never understand.
Posted 10 years ago # -
"(the sixth stone Ian Stewart may have had Scottish roots?"
MAY!!??
You know better than that.
Posted 10 years ago # -
I have two posters in my window, does that count as two posters? Just one bay window but two separate panes of glass in their own frames, so technically two separate windows?
Ian Stewart's influence on the stones is worth its own thread. He died aged 47 in a clinic waiting to have a respiratory issue examined. He is the best stone for sure.
Don't think the royal thing will get throught the internecine committees of the BPS.
I mentioned it on here as it is bizarre that the Yes campaign is keeping the queen.
Additionally, but not specific to this thread can we not use quotation marks?nor capitals, except where they are at the beginning of a sentence or otherwise grammatically correct, or italics. I find all of these affectations.
Posted 10 years ago # -
Mick Jagger is quintessentially English. He may consider that he is (also) British, and have some romantic notion for keeping these countries together.
He is not unaware of 'politics', though is sparing in his comments.
http://www.gigwise.com/news/10771/mick-jagger-slams-tony-blair
"It was the Duke of Westminster's son in law that asked Jagger to ask us to stay together."
Ah, so elements of Establishments.
I'm sure all the people who signed that letter 'believe' that (some version of) the status quo should endure, but it's unlikely that many of them have much understanding of the issues surrounding the Referendum. Will any have read the White Paper?
The world looks different from London (or whichever part of the world the signatories spend their time - New York, Jamaica, Nice?)
Perhaps there should be a Scottish campaign "Boris: 4 more years" or "Boris 4 Westminster PM".
Why not? He was BBC headline news the other day, so he must have some importance in/to the whole of Britain.
Posted 10 years ago # -
"I mentioned it on here as it is bizarre that the Yes campaign is keeping the queen."
YOU do know better than that.
The SNP leadership has decided that wanting to keep the Queen is 'a good idea'.
There are many SNP members/supporters less comfortable with this stance. IN ADDITION many individuals/groupings backing Yes don't want the Queen (or the Pound).
The Yes campaign may or may not be more united/organised than No/Better Together but there is no absolutely common view beyond the idea that Scotland could/should be an independent country (and might be better off - not in a crude financial sense.)
Alistair Darling wasn't even able to agree that 'Scotland could' - because he would be 'agreeing with David Cameron'.
That was quite pathetic.
Surely a politician of his calibre should have been able to say 'of course Scotland could be a successful independent country, I passionately believe that my country and the rest of the UK are better together' - and add - 'that is one of the few things I agree with DC about!'
Followed by audience applause and the belief (by most people) that he did beat Salmond in that debate.
Posted 10 years ago # -
"can we not use quotation marks?nor capitals, except where they are at the beginning of a sentence or otherwise grammatically correct, or italics. I find all of these affectations."
I'm affected.
(This forum is not a university exam paper. Personal choice. The English language - spoken and written evolves.)
Posted 10 years ago #
Topic Closed
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