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White Paper (THE #indyref thread)

(2915 posts)
  • Started 10 years ago by Morningsider
  • Latest reply from chdot
  • This topic is closed

1…717273…98

  1. crowriver
    Member

    Don't forget that not everyone will be voting in person. We don't yet know how many postal votes there will be, but if previous elections are anything to go by, it'll be a fair number. So not everyone will bother to go down to the polling station, but they may still vote by post.

    Which brings up an interesting issue. Let's imagine the result is quite close, due to the effect of 'armchair supporters' on the No side not bothering to turn up. Could the referendum be decided by postal votes?

    Which conjures memories of various electoral fraud scandals over the past decade, mostly involving postal votes and the Labour party. A High Court judge famously described the UK's voting system as akin to that of "a banana republic". Could we see postal vote fraud, vote stuffing, and other such nefarious practices during the referendum?

    Coincidentally no doubt, Douglas Alexander made a speech a few days ago noting that postal votes will go out in less than a fortnight, and urging Labour supporters to "bring home the vote". This signalled a push by large squads of Labour activists in Glasgow to chap on doors. Which I'm sure is all above board.

    I do hope though that there will be careful checks on postal votes this time around.

    Posted 9 years ago #

  2. Instography
    Member

    You don't. Journalists have been asking to see names. You could do a data access request, since the list will be covered by the Data Protection Act (it should be sensitive personal data as it reveals your political opinions) and you're entitled to a copy of all the data Yes Scotland holds about you.

    Posted 9 years ago #

  3. crowriver
    Member

    Well I signed the pledge last year. I'm happy to share that fact.

    Posted 9 years ago #

  4. stiltskin
    Member

    Ummm. What is the point in signing a Declaration if you aren't going to own up to doing it? I thought people (like crow river) were doing it to stand up and be counted...

    Posted 9 years ago #

  5. Instography
    Member

    @crowriver
    I'm sure there's a potentially fraudulent aspect to all this door chapping, voter registration etc. But if so then surely the potential lies also with Yes door knocking, voter registration and mass canvassing?

    Posted 9 years ago #

  6. Instography
    Member

    There's nothing stopping individuals saying that they signed it but it would probably be illegal for Yes Scotland to publish the list if they don't have consent from everyone on it.

    Posted 9 years ago #

  7. crowriver
    Member

    @Instography
    Doubtless that potential is there on both sides. Only one side though has a track record of convictions for electoral fraud involving postal votes. One side also has the public backing of the CWU, the postal worker's union. One side also (probably) has the support of Special Branch and the secret services.

    After all, it's not as though some senior politicians have anything to lose in the event of a Yes vote, is it? So no doubt it will all be completely free and fair, especially in Glasgow, where there's never been any history of electoral fraud whatsoever. No siree.

    Posted 9 years ago #

  8. Instography
    Member

    Special Branch and the secret services?

    Posted 9 years ago #

  9. Stickman
    Member

    "Special Branch and the secret services?"

    Don't forget the Illuminati....

    Posted 9 years ago #

  10. crowriver
    Member

    Just a bit of spice to make things interesting. Good to know folk are still reading the thread. ;-) But think on it, if there is a threat to the integrity of the British State, then some might see it as their duty to intervene. In the interests of national security, so to speak.

    In other news, it would appear environmental campaigners are still being placed on surveillance lists as "subversives". The good old Regulation of Investigatory Powers Act 2000 means just about any grounds can be used for surveillance, monitoring, intercepting communications, and so on.

    Anyway, enough musing. The Electoral Commission published the report of its investigations into electoral fraud in January this year. Not sure if any of the recommendations have been implemented, I expect not.

    Posted 9 years ago #

  11. Instography
    Member

    Instead of black ops, wouldn't it just have been easier to place some obstacles in the way of a referendum or "persuade" Alex that maybe now wasn't the time?

    Posted 9 years ago #

  12. crowriver
    Member

    Perhaps, like Cameron, they assumed there was no chance of the Yes side winning. Always good to have contingency plans just in case though. After all, exactly where is Trident supposed to go?

    Consider the scale of the threat to the British state's international standing presented by the prospect of Scottish independence. It's almost inconceivable that certain state actors have not run through particular scenarios and drawn up stratagems to further state interests.

    Posted 9 years ago #

  13. Instography
    Member

    You think Cameron thought there was no chance?

    Posted 9 years ago #

  14. crowriver
    Member

    Absolutely. Why else did he insist on Yes/No? He could have agreed to the so-called "third question" ie. "devo max", which is what the gradualists in the SNP (including Salmond) wanted as a first step towards their ultimate goal. Probably the polls would look very different just now if that question was on the ballot.

    Instead Cameron (and many others in the Westminster establishment) decided it had to be all or nothing, as it were. Perhaps reasoning that, faced with this stark choice, the Scottish electorate would prefer the devil they know. Having thought the unthinkable however, Cameron (and others) started to wonder "What if they win?" You could see it in Cameron's face when he made his "lovebomb" speech: "What have I done?" Other than that and a few luvvies begging Scots to stay, it's been Gideon et al going "Don't you dare even think about it, or else!"

    Posted 9 years ago #

  15. gembo
    Member

    What was the proposed question from SNP

    Do you agree.......?

    Four weeks to go, wetter together surging ahead in the buckets of cold water over leaders front. But they are looking for a big enough bucket for Alex before Monday.

    Going to be a long four weeks

    Posted 9 years ago #

  16. chdot
    Admin

    "

    This is what the Scottish debate is to Devine and others: a social democracy that is in effect a mirage and a middle class preservation society. This is stasis and the closed Scotland known down the years where enlightened professional opinion tell you what is good for you because they know best (eat your greens, cycle or keep fit and don’t talk back!).

    "

    http://www.gerryhassan.com/blog/tom-devine-the-indy-ref-and-the-myths-of-modern-scotland

    Posted 9 years ago #

  17. crowriver
    Member

    Another thoughtful contribution to the discussion, this time on control of information (statistics in this case):

    How decisions on data and analysis have biased the referendum debate

    Posted 9 years ago #

  18. crowriver
    Member

    @gembo, you can read the official record of the negotiations that went on regarding the referendum question, and how the final binary yes/no was decided upon, in this House of Lords report.

    It's quite clear that the Scottish government were pushing for devo max/fiscal autonomy to be included, but the UK government line was that devo max was not a Scottish matter, but a whole UK one. Therefore, no to that as an option in this referendum.

    Posted 9 years ago #

  19. gembo
    Member

    Thanks crowriver good to know. Also that salmond was a gradualist within SNP whereas others were presumably absolutists.

    Was told I should be ashamed of myself in Currie today but, that chap walking past rather than on his doorstep was invited to change the record.

    Was strong No as you would expect

    Word on the street was SNP had encroached inside ASDA today, hey maybe it was raining. Well it was raining as I was out in it. Best quote of the day from punter

    - if that Edward Cruikshank had beaten Mel Gibson in Braveheart we wouldn't have had all this bother.

    Posted 9 years ago #

  20. chdot
    Admin

    At least the No campaign isn't ordinary -

    http://wingsoverscotland.com/the-ordinary-people

    Posted 9 years ago #

  21. gembo
    Member

    Is it true if you type in text from wings over Scotland into some kind of search engine that is meant to identify the book the text comes from the first suggestion is mein kampf?

    Now there are flaws in this suggestion as mien kampf is in German. Also please note it is not the content, or meaning that is linked to mien kampf but the grammar or style of rhetoric?

    This could be all made up. I have never read Mein kampf and have only looked at wings over Scotland once. Ended up at pictures of a Greek restaurant with Scottish football fans taking the picture? Or some more obscure part of the site anyway.

    Further, I am not sure what sort of search engine the person who told me this meant. I am happy to be told this is all made up, I am not casting aspersions.

    Posted 9 years ago #

  22. Instography
    Member

    "Another thoughtful contribution to the discussion, this time on control of information (statistics in this case)"

    All of that is true but it's also more generally true. Governments of all shades and at all levels use their ability to determine the collection, analysis and publication of data to shape what is known and knowable.

    Posted 9 years ago #

  23. Instography
    Member

    @gembo
    I've only seen that Mein Kampf suggestion on a slightly crazed blog Ah Dinnae Ken, which seems to be devoted to attacking Wings Over Scotland and Joan McAlpine in particular and the Yes campaign in general while maintaining that it is "undecided".

    Posted 9 years ago #

  24. gembo
    Member

    Ah so an even more bizarre website set up merely to criticise wings over Scotland which is clearly not undecided. Also to criticise Joan MacAllpine. could it be that Pat Kane is behind it and that even though he is a yes he still feels bitter about his ex wife sending his children to fee paying school?

    Did have a quick look at that site, seems to be a lot of effort for not many laffs.

    Posted 9 years ago #

  25. chdot
    Admin

    "
    FORMER Labour first minister Lord McConnell yesterday claimed that Holyrood’s funding formula would “wither on the vine” and eventually be replaced by a new needs-based UK-wide system.

    McConnell predicted that the so-called Barnett Formula would be “diminished” in the event of a No vote because the funding arrangement would be irrevocably changed by new tax powers coming to Holyrood.

    "

    http://www.scotsman.com/news/uk/barnett-formula-will-be-replaced-says-mcconnell-1-3519167

    Posted 9 years ago #

  26. Instography
    Member

    Not until the Scottish Rate of Income Tax allows variation between tax rates, which it currently doesn't.

    Posted 9 years ago #

  27. Instography
    Member

    Not sure about this idea of taking a pen to the polling station. Changing ballot papers would take too long. I reckon the fiddled papers are already prepared and in storage. Quick switcheroo en route to the count and it's sorted.

    Posted 9 years ago #

  28. algo
    Member

    Andy Wightman has declared his position - unsurprising I think, but a good read…

    http://www.andywightman.com/?p=3843

    Posted 9 years ago #

  29. chdot
    Admin

    "

    Fiscal Affairs Scotland, led by former Treasury economist and Labour special adviser John McLaren, said “there may well be a way to allay the UK Government’s economic concerns over the implications of a currency union”.

    But he said the consequences of reaching such a compromise means “Scotland will effectively have little in the way of control over its monetary and fiscal policy”.

    "

    http://www.scotsman.com/news/politics/top-stories/scottish-independence-uk-could-agree-pound-deal-1-3519966

    Posted 9 years ago #

  30. chdot
    Admin

    "

    Prof Stiglitz, from America, said: “One of the things as an outsider I’ve looked at the debate, particularly from the No side, I’ve been a little bit shocked how much of it is based on fear, trying to get anxiety levels up and how little of it has been based on vision.

    "

    http://www.edinburghnews.scotsman.com/news/scottish-independence-economist-slams-fear-tactics-1-3520151

    Posted 9 years ago #

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