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White Paper (THE #indyref thread)

(2915 posts)
  • Started 11 years ago by Morningsider
  • Latest reply from chdot
  • This topic is closed

  1. Morningsider
    Member

    The decision to hold a recount is made by the Counting Office (the referendum name for Returning Officer, who is normally the local authority chief executive). Recounts can be requested by campaigners at the count for whatever reasons they see fit.

    The Chief Counting Officer (Mary Pitcathly - Chair of the Electoral Management Board of Scotland) can order a Counting Officer to conduct a recount if she has any concerns about the accuracy of the count. The Chief Counting officer must approve the results of a count before the Counting Officer can make an official declaration.

    Posted 10 years ago #
  2. I were right about that saddle
    Member

    I happened to glance to the right as I was canvassing a senior citizen on Sunday Morning and saw this;

    http://www.edinburghnews.scotsman.com/news/pentland-hills-yes-banner-at-hillend-1-3526438

    Thought I was halucinating. Asked her to have a look and see if she could see it!

    Wound up going back later to kill the wasps' nest in her porch. Good neighbour style of thing.

    Posted 10 years ago #
  3. chdot
    Admin

    "So maybe getting more people so fed up with the referendum that they don't take part would help the nationalists?"

    I presume by "nationalists" you mean the broader Yes campaign?

    It could well be that those 'fed up enough to not vote' will (also) be those who got enthusiastic about voting for independence but (might) change their minds.

    Posted 10 years ago #
  4. I were right about that saddle
    Member

    Grim news from Gorgie;

    http://www.edinburghnews.scotsman.com/news/yes-campaigners-attacked-by-mob-outside-tynecastle-1-3527125

    We can do without all this stuff.

    Posted 10 years ago #
  5. chdot
    Admin

    "

    George Foulkes (@GeorgeFoulkes)
    31/08/2014 20:55
    @youngwd1 @Southsidegrrrl @LAHinds @KarenKeil1 no trouble when I passed Yes stand outside Tynecastle but mixing poltics & football not wise.

    "

    Posted 10 years ago #
  6. I were right about that saddle
    Member

    but mixing poltics & football not wise

    Could lead to a cataclysm or even Forces of Darkness.

    Posted 10 years ago #
  7. chdot
    Admin

    "

    The good news is that Murphy has now resumed the tour. He has ignored the egg, crossed the road and started again.

    "

    http://referendum.holyrood.com/daily-blog

    Posted 10 years ago #
  8. chdot
    Admin

    "

    The No campaign confirmed that Mr Murphy would be re-start his speaking tour in Edinburgh’s Princes Street, where he will be speaking from a mobile stage.

    "

    http://www.scotsman.com/news/politics/top-stories/jim-murphy-restarts-100-streets-in-100-days-tour-1-3527179

    Will it be on the tram tracks for a quick getaway?

    Posted 10 years ago #
  9. crowriver
    Member

    Oh, how egg-citing.

    Hasn't his Murphiness already been in Edinburgh? I seem to recall a photo of him on the High Street during the Fringe, tweeted by BT/NT with a caption "great turnout for Jim Murphy". Trying to pretend the Fringe multitudes were there foir him and not actually queuing for a ghost tour!

    Posted 10 years ago #
  10. crowriver
    Member

    "given that none of us have voted recently in a referendum, I don't understand how it would work out in a way that left out those who don't normally vote."

    I'm sure Insto could shed some light on this.

    However, I'd imagine the idea is that these non-voters (until now) are not counted in opinion polls, either because:

    a. They were interviewed by the pollsters, said they did not vote, and their views not taken into account or counted as Don't Know/Don't Vote.

    b. They don't appear in polls because they:
    x. - Don't have a landline
    y. - Don't sign up for online polls
    z. - Don't answer the door to folk with clipboards

    Posted 10 years ago #
  11. crowriver
    Member

    "if we reweight the figures for those who say they voted in the euro-elections, so that they reflect the actual result"

    Turnout for the Euro elections this year was 33.5%. I think weighting any poll according to those results will be very unrepresentative of the electorate as a whole.

    Posted 10 years ago #
  12. Stickman
    Member

    Turnout for the Euro elections this year was 33.5%. I think weighting any poll according to those results will be very unrepresentative of the electorate as a whole.

    I've asked this before, and I'm genuinely interested to find out, but is this necessarily true?

    Posted 10 years ago #
  13. crowriver
    Member

    In strict terms none of the elections are relevant to the referendum, because the decision is different. It's not "Who would you like to represent you in Westminster/Holyrood/Strasbourg?" It's "Should Scotland be an independent country?"

    Therefore, weighting by how people voted in elections for Westminster/Holyrood/Strasbourg will skew poll results.

    Selecting interviewees and subsequent weighting for socio-economic status might help, but if the sample is small can all socio-economic grops be represented accurately?

    Posted 10 years ago #
  14. chdot
    Admin

    "

    Jim Murphy (@jimmurphymp)
    01/09/2014 13:58
    Looking forward to restarting #100Streets #indyref tour tomorrow in Edinburgh at 11am.

    "

    Posted 10 years ago #
  15. chdot
    Admin

    Referring to the 'story' in today's Herald -

    "

    In response to the suggestion of absolute carnage in and around polling stations on the 18th Sept Brian Docherty, Chairman of the Scottish Police Federation said;

    “The independence debate has been robust but overwhelmingly good natured and it would prove a disservice to those who have participated in it thus far to suggest that with 17 days to go, Scotland is about to disintegrate into absolute carnage on the back of making the most important decision in the country’s history

    Politicians and supporters of whichever point of view need to be mindful of the potential impact of intemperate, inflammatory and exaggerated language, lest they be seen to seek to create a self fulfilling prophecy”

    "

    http://www.spf.org.uk/2014/09/spf-media-release-independence-referendum

    Posted 10 years ago #
  16. Stickman
    Member

    @crowriver

    Thanks. Actually, the question I asked before (and meant to ask again here) was:

    Is there any reason to assume in advance of the referendum itself that the final votes of the Undecided/Don't Knows will be distributed any differently from the current Yes/No split?

    The extent of my statistical training is more focussed on mortality/morbidity studies; electoral polling is well outside my comfort zone.

    Posted 10 years ago #
  17. stiltskin
    Member

    Is there any reason to assume in advance of the referendum itself that the final votes of the Undecided/Don't Knows will be distributed any differently from the current Yes/No split?

    I read somewhere that the undecided are thought to be 2:1 tending towards No. can't remember where that was though

    Posted 10 years ago #
  18. slowcoach
    Member

    http://blog.whatscotlandthinks.org/2014/09/could-the-missing-million-swing-it-to-yes/ - discusses those who didn't vote in 2011 and how they might vote this time.

    Posted 10 years ago #
  19. crowriver
    Member

    Apologies if this has been announced before.

    Tuesday, September 2, between 8pm and 10pm on STV and ITV Border.

    "STV announces line-up for live referendum 'town hall' debate"

    "Three guests will represent each side of the campaign. Yes will be represented by deputy first minister and SNP depute leader Nicola Sturgeon MSP, Scottish Green Party co-convenor Patrick Harvie MSP, and actress and Scottish Independence Convention chair Elaine C Smith. The No team will comprise Labour shadow foreign secretary Douglas Alexander MP, Scottish Conservative leader Ruth Davidson MSP, and Kezia Dugdale, Labour MSP and shadow education secretary in the Scottish Parliament."

    Looks an interesting line up. Perhaps a better discussion will ensue?

    One thing though: much as I like Kezia Dugfale, could they not have found a non-politician, or at least a non-Labour politician for the third No slot? No-one from the Lib Dems available? Or are they hedging their bets a bit?

    Posted 10 years ago #
  20. Instography
    Member

    "Featuring a quote from someone we may know..."

    Not me.

    John Curtice on What Scotland Thinks has already done the 'missing million' and the ways in which they might not be covered by opinion polls. There's certainly truth in the problems of coverage although they only matter if they are a source of bias. For instance, the coverage of landlines could be a source of bias but only if there's some consistent link between not having a landline and voting intention. There may be: the some evidence from the US that mobile only households are more Democrat than landline households. Same with internet access and willingness to open the door. If people who tend not to participate in surveys also tend to support Yes then you have a problem. All I can say is that these problems existed in 2011 and the polls were generally good and Ipsos MORI (telephone) polls were pretty much bang on.

    But then there's an opposite problem of people over-claiming past voting and intention to vote. We know from surveys immediately before elections and immediately after elections that people over-state their intention to vote and their participation in elections by about 10%. So, when 80% of people say they are certain to vote we know that some of them won't. But we don't know who.

    John Curtice's analysis suggests that the missing million might not be the natural Yes territory that is supposed. I also think that all for all the mass canvassing and registration in peripheral estates, there is a strong likelihood that many of those people will not turn out. If there's a differential drop in turnout it is likely to affect Yes more simply because it draws more support from areas where likelihood of voting is lower. The conventional wisdom would be that lower turnout favours no. But there's a paradox in that. The lower the turnout, the lower the proportion of undecideds Yes needs to get a majority. To win, Yes need high turnout and high conversion of Don't Knows (about three quarters of them). No benefits from lower turnout accompanied by a more even split of the undecideds. But we won't know that until the weeks after the referendum. If the turnout is high among Yes and No supporters (or just equal at any reasonable level) but the undecideds stay at home in large numbers, Yes is sunk.

    As far as weighting goes, all of the internet pollsters weight by actual (if they know) or reported party support in the 2011 Scottish Parliament election. TNS also does this, to a lesser extent. Ipsos MORI is the only pollster that doesn't. I think it's a bit ropey is because many people either can't remember or misreport their 2011 voting. More people report voting than did and more report voting SNP than did. A portion of the sample weren't eligible to vote and another portion didn't vote. I have no idea how they deal with those people.

    Posted 10 years ago #
  21. crowriver
    Member

    @stiltskin, that is a very interesting article. Definitely read the comments though, which go into some finer detail.

    Posted 10 years ago #
  22. chdot
    Admin

    "there is a strong likelihood that many of those people will not turn out"

    Yes but -

    People don't have to "turn out" anymore.

    I imagine that part of 'registration push' has been to point out postal votes.

    The proportion has been rising in recent elections, I presume the trend will increase.

    Are any of the polls asking how people will vote?

    Posted 10 years ago #
  23. Instography
    Member

    I use turn out in the loosest sense of not voting.

    It's true that turnout among people with postal votes is high - 77% in 2011 - but in past elections we don't know to what extent postal voting represents something of a commitment to vote rather than a more convenient way of voting.

    I would have thought that for someone not committed to voting, actually returning a postal vote requires about the same level of motivation to have someone from RIC register for you and then to see the postal ballot form, open it, find a pen, mark the cross and then walk to the post box with the form in its envelope. RIC did half the work - they took the mountain - but having reached the trough, the horse now has to drink. To wreck two perfectly good metaphors. A fair proportion of the newly registered still won't vote.

    In 2011 about 6% of postal ballots were rejected mainly because people mucked it up - not returning the ballot paper or the statement with their signature, or just not signing it. I'd expect more of the non-voters who vote to muck it up and have their papers rejected.

    The other factor that will bring turnout below the 80% reported in surveys is that at least some of those people still aren't registered. They might think they're certain to vote but they're not.

    I'm sticking with my estimate of 73% turnout.

    I'm not aware of anyone asking how people intend to vote. I expect most to start asking whether people have already voted and how.

    Posted 10 years ago #
  24. chdot
    Admin

    "

    Mark L Thomas (@MarkLThomas1)
    01/09/2014 21:13
    @georgeeaton: YouGov poll in tomorrow's Times puts Scottish Yes just six points behind (gap was 18 in July)

    http://www.thetimes.co.uk/tto/opinion/leaders/article4193736.ece

    "

    Posted 10 years ago #
  25. chdot
    Admin

    "

    Mike Smithson (@MSmithsonPB)
    01/09/2014 21:19
    YouGov IndyRef poll for the Times finds NO leads down to just 6%. It was 18% in July. %age of LAB voters supporting YES up from 13% to 30

    Mike Smithson (@MSmithsonPB)
    01/09/2014 21:21
    YouGov/Times IndyRef poll finds undecided voters splitting to YES by 2-1.

    "

    Posted 10 years ago #
  26. chdot
    Admin

  27. chdot
    Admin

    "

    Christopher James (@ChrisJames_90)
    01/09/2014 22:04
    YouGov/Sun: Conservatives just a point behind. Eight months out, Miliband must be extremely worried

    CON 34%
    LAB 35%
    LDEM 7%
    UKIP 14%

    "

    Posted 10 years ago #
  28. slowcoach
    Member

    "Also out tonight is the monthly ComRes/Indy telephone poll which has topline figures of CON 28%(+1), LAB 35%(+2), LDEM 9%(+1), UKIP 17%(nc)" (UKPollingReport) they can't both be right.

    I'd rather be a point (or seven) ahead than six points behind, but the real votes are what count.

    Posted 10 years ago #
  29. PS
    Member

    I'd ignore that YouGov indyref poll if I were you. It's clearly a No Campaign strategy to make sure No voters don't complacently assume they don't need to vote. I mean, look at it; it's published in The Sun... #tinfoilhaton

    Posted 10 years ago #
  30. chdot
    Admin

    "It's clearly a No Campaign strategy"

    You're not questioning pollsters' impartiality are you?

    Posted 10 years ago #

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