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White Paper (THE #indyref thread)

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  • Started 10 years ago by Morningsider
  • Latest reply from chdot
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  1. crowriver
    Member

    "Jim Murphy: Labour is sticking with Trident"

    http://www.newstatesman.com/politics/2013/03/jim-murphy-labour-sticking-trident

    "MPs back submarine building in Barrow"

    'Philip Dunne MP, minister for defence equipment, and Rt Hon Jim Murphy MP, Labour’s shadow secretary of state, were among those who spoke at the event to show their strong support for Britain’s submarine-based nuclear deterrent.

    All the speakers paid tribute to the cutting edge work of the firms forming the supply chain for the Astute-class submarines, currently under construction in Barrow, and stressed the importance for these firms of the Vanguard replacement programme.

    John Woodcock, MP for Barrow and Furness, who hosted the event said:

    “It was fantastic to see so many MPs and peers from every corner of the country and all political parties coming to meet representatives of the firms and workers who form the supply chain for Britain’s cutting edge submarines. They will have been left in no doubt of the importance of the submarine programme to supporting British manufacturing and rebalancing the economy, as well as to securing Britain’s security – I hope they will bear this in mind when the time comes in 2016 to make a decision on renewing our at-sea nuclear deterrent.

    “I am particularly grateful for the strong political support given to the submarine programme by government and opposition frontbenchers, Philip Dunne and Jim Murphy, in their speeches – the 1,200 firms in the supply chain will have taken heart from what they both said.” '

    http://www.itv.com/news/granada/2013-07-02/mps-back-submarine-building-in-barrow/

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vanguard-class_submarine

    Posted 9 years ago #

  2. chdot
    Admin

    "

    Tim Shipman (@ShippersUnbound)
    06/09/2014 21:29
    OFFICIAL: POLITICAL EARTHQUAKE! YouGov poll for Sunday Times puts Salmond ahead for the first time. Yes campaign leads 51% to 49%

    "

    "

    Political Editor, The Sunday Times.

    "

    Posted 9 years ago #

  3. chdot
    Admin

    "

    Tim Shipman (@ShippersUnbound)
    06/09/2014 21:29
    Salmond has overturned a 22 point lead held by Better Together just four weeks ago. Huge momentum for break-up of union

    "

    "

    Tim Shipman (@ShippersUnbound)
    06/09/2014 21:30
    YouGov/ST poll Labour voters switching to Salmond in droves. 35% now back independence up from 18% a month ago

    "

    "

    Tim Shipman (@ShippersUnbound)
    06/09/2014 21:31
    YouGov/ST poll: Every age group now backing independence except the over 60s. Women, the rich, the poor all switching to Salmond

    "

    "

    Tim Shipman (@ShippersUnbound)
    06/09/2014 21:32
    Better Together leaders not trusted by Scottish voters. Trust for Darling 33%, Brown 32%, Cameron & Miliband 23%. Salmond 42%, Sturgeon 44%.

    "

    "

    Tim Shipman (@ShippersUnbound)
    06/09/2014 21:37
    Several Tory MPs expected to publicly demand the prime minister's resignation if there is a Yes vote in Scotland

    "

    Posted 9 years ago #

  4. chdot
    Admin

    Posted 9 years ago #

  5. chdot
    Admin

    Posted 9 years ago #

  6. chdot
    Admin

    "
    Faisal Islam (@faisalislam)
    06/09/2014 22:56
    The border guards can stand down, @labourpress has denied that mail On Sunday splash on behalf of ed miliband...

    "

    Posted 9 years ago #

  7. chdot
    Admin

    "

    The people of Scotland are to be offered a historic opportunity to devise a federal future for their country before next year's general election, it emerged on Saturday night, as a shock new poll gave the campaign for independence a narrow lead for the first time.

    Amid signs of panic and recrimination among unionist ranks about the prospects of a yes vote on 18 September, the Observer has learned that a devolution announcement designed to halt the nationalist bandwagon is due to be made within days by the anti-independence camp.

    "

    http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2014/sep/06/scots-radical-new-deal-save-the-union

    Posted 9 years ago #

  8. DdF
    Member

    If the vote is yes, I hope it doesn't encourage the SNP govt to pursue its #indyref White Paper transport policies even more vigorously than they are already doing.

    Posted 9 years ago #

  9. wingpig
    Member

    Tim Shipman was in the year above me at school.
    Just back from the take-away version of a dinner party with my wife's school peer group. Six decideds, one uncertain and one undisclosed.

    Posted 9 years ago #

  10. gkgk
    Member

    Of course, the only rock-solid, final, churn-free Decideds are the postal voters who've posted.

    I'm not for churning though - I can't imagine any last-minute, previously-vetoed devo max offer that can't be better discussed after a Yes result than after a No result.

    Posted 9 years ago #

  11. amir
    Member

    Trying to be neutral on this, the country will take some settling down after the vote. Given the current state of the polls, more or less half the people will be upset after the result. It's been quite a bitter campaign on both sides.

    Posted 9 years ago #

  12. gibbo
    Member

    This is a 15 pt swing since the Patronising Lady ad.

    I wonder how much of that 15 is women rejecting the suggestion that being a woman = too stupid to think the issue through properly.

    Posted 9 years ago #

  13. slowcoach
    Member

    http://i.imgur.com/vHFDv2G.png strange trends with yougov?
    http://www1.politicalbetting.com/index.php/archives/2014/09/07/remember-it-was-the-yougov-polling-panel-that-most-exaggerated-the-last-political-earthquake-the-cleggasm-in-april-2010/ yougov was worst at last referendum (2011) poll?

    Posted 9 years ago #

  14. chdot
    Admin

    "I can't imagine any last-minute, previously-vetoed devo max offer that can't be better discussed after a Yes result than after a No result."

    I think I agree with that.

    Part of me would like a tiny no majority, so not too much disruption and 'rely' on 'the Westminster parties' to deliver what the people in Scotland 'really want' – some sort of Devomax.

    I am sure the three No parties will be falling over themselves in the next week to cobble together an 'offer'. That may be enough to persuade some people to vote No, but it's all a bit late.

    The best thing the Yes campaign can do before the referendum is to emphasise that it's not about Alex Salmond (or the SNP) and it's not about the White Paper.

    That's the one (near) certainty that I don't like about this process, after a Yes vote, Alex Salmond will be saying there is a clear mandate for the WP and all its contents etc.

    Posted 9 years ago #

  15. chdot
    Admin

    "It's been quite a bitter campaign on both sides."

    I really don't think that's true.

    One man threw some eggs, they missed.

    The egg that stained Jim Murphy's shirt, was clapped on his back. He certainly made several meals out of it.

    He didn't even get a fresh shirt before the next speaking gig, and then made a lot of fuss about it being an organised Yes protest.

    Some nasty things have been said on Twitter. That's Twitter.

    Posted 9 years ago #

  16. chdot
    Admin

    "

    Plans to devolve more powers to Scotland inside the UK will be unveiled within days after a shock poll put the Yes camp in the lead for the first time.

    "

    http://home.bt.com/news/uknews/more-devolved-powers-to-be-unveiled-11363931241410

    Ironically that's the other BT!

    Posted 9 years ago #

  17. chdot
    Admin

    "

    Tuesday September 23rd, Professor John Curtice will join us again to offer an analysis of the vote: How Scotland’s Citizens Voted. (Sir Charles Wilson Building, 6-7.30pm. Informal reception afterwards.)

    "

    http://www.gla.ac.uk/schools/socialpolitical/research/politics/stevensontrustforcitizenship/lecturesseries/lectureseries2013-2014/

    Posted 9 years ago #

  18. slowcoach
    Member

    Can any devo max offer be discussed after a yes vote? Won't Salmond say he has the mandate he's asked for, to negotiate separation settlement ?

    Posted 9 years ago #

  19. crowriver
    Member

    The SNP's vision of 'Indy Lite' (keeping the monarchy, currency union, various shared arrangements with rUK) is effectively Devo Max Plus.

    So I don't see what the 'offer' is from the No camp. Gordon Brown was talking about devolving transport policy and control over welfare benefit levels. Not much, really. Nobody seems to have noticed that Brown has no power to offer anything, he's a backbench opposition MP who only rarely turns up at Westminster.

    Other than that, there have been various off the record "soundings" (kite flying) by unnamed coalition ministers. Scarcely credible, is it?

    The panic amongst No politicians is palpable. Folk minded to vote Yes need to stay the course. Vote Yes and then our representatives can negotiate a much better deal for Scots. Vote No and we will just get whatever crumbs a triumphant UK government decides to give us.

    Posted 9 years ago #

  20. chdot
    Admin

    "Can any devo max offer be discussed after a yes vote?"

    I think that's a fundamental question.

    I haven't read the Edinburgh Agreement, so don't know how prescriptive the signatories believe it is. Certainly one side never imagined they would have to look at it again!

    Is there much beyond 'agree to work amicably to implement the will of the people in Scotland'?

    One issue of course is that for some people keeping the Pound and Queen isn't Independence. So 'devo max' can be anything from 'where we are' to 'North Korean style isolation'!

    "Won't Salmond say he has the mandate he's asked for, to negotiate separation settlement ?"

    I don't think there can be any doubt that he - as a leading figure in the Yes campaign and Leader of the current SG - will say that.

    AND he will be (broadly) correct.

    Saying that 'the Scottish people have voted for a currency union and the contents of the WP WOULDN'T be true.

    However I believe his, and other SNPers, intentions of having 'a broad negotiating team'.

    I don't believe that it will all be sewn up before the next Holyrood election.

    That may or may not be the best time/place to 'decide' on the 'state of the negotiations' and who will be running (more or less) independent Scotland for the first five years.

    At the moment the future is unwritten.

    It's not clear whose hands will be on the keyboards - or what script they will be trying to follow.

    So many uncertainties - that's life.

    Posted 9 years ago #

  21. chdot
    Admin

    "

    Ian Mackay Bell (@IanBell1916)
    07/09/2014 10:36
    Oh, good: @MurnaghanSky has Jeffrey Archer on to explain why the British state isn't worthless and corrupt. #indyref

    "

    "

    Ian Mackay Bell (@IanBell1916)
    07/09/2014 11:37
    @alexjohnstone01 @MurnaghanSky It goes for the entire No campaign: an inability to believe that there can be more to politics than parties.

    "

    Posted 9 years ago #

  22. gkgk
    Member

    Worth bearing in mind that Westminster dissolves in March 2015 for the general election. Half these Westminster politicians will be gone in the May 2015 election. The rest will be negotiating with ukip. They vetoed the devo max option from the ballot paper. They've no right to expect us to swap our referendum for such a shaky set of last minute maybes as they're now alluding to.

    Personally, I don't favour devomax (even if they found a way to promise it explicitly) because I'd like to get away from funding uk foreign policy's more (in my view) evil elements. I'd not choose a tobacco / arms ISA and similarly I want distance between my taxes and renditions, invasions, tortures, wmd.

    Posted 9 years ago #

  23. Baldcyclist
    Member

    Heartened to see the swing to Yes, and whilst I still don't see Yes winning this iteration of the debate (I do hope I am wrong). I do think we are on an inevitable path to more and more devolved power, and ultimately independence in the next, or next again iteration of the debate.

    It may not happen in my lifetime, but my son's. I do think so.

    Posted 9 years ago #

  24. gembo
    Member

    Just back from great cycling holiday in Northumberland. Friendly people happy to see us. Not sure why we should split from them and waste money setting up our own embassies etc.

    Scores on the fields on the way down through the borders 10 No 6 Yes. Jedburgh route.

    On way back up Carlisle Biggar Balerno 12 no and 9 yes but includes 4 signs being pit up in Biggar by Yes side and 4 signs in my front window

    Posted 9 years ago #

  25. slowcoach
    Member

    meanwhile in the fields of west Borders, Better Together/No Thanks organiser reports "16 of our 18 posters put up in Tweeddale vandalised".
    Some Yes posters have been removed at Leadburn, but that was by the Council, according to Facebook comments.

    Posted 9 years ago #

  26. chdot
    Admin

    Sneaky -

    "

    A timetable for new powers for Scotland would not break referendum purdah period rules, says the UK government.

    The UK and Scottish governments are prohibited from publishing anything which argues "for or against a particular outcome" during purdah.

    On Sunday, UK Chancellor George Osborne said voters in Scotland will be offered a plan for more powers.

    However, the UK government claims the offer would come from the pro-Union parties, not the government itself.

    "

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-29100372

    Duplicitous even.

    Just the sort of thing to attract voters in Scotland at this confusing time.

    Posted 9 years ago #

  27. crowriver
    Member

    'Leader of the pro-Union Better Together campaign, Alistair Darling, later clarified what the chancellor had meant.
    In an interview with Sky News, the former Labour chancellor said: "What we're talking about is the powers that have already been announced by the party leaders in Scotland and in Westminster.
    "What the government is saying is that it proposes to publish a timetable - the procedure - to allow these proposals to be implemented.
    "So, it's not new powers; the powers have already been announced. What it is, is about the process and timetable so that people can see quite clearly how quickly these powers can be introduced." '

    So there you have it, straight from the horse's mouth, No new powers.

    Just vote YES.

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-29099431

    Posted 9 years ago #

  28. chdot
    Admin


    Posted 9 years ago #

  29. crowriver
    Member

    David Officer ‏@Davidofficer
    Q: When is a new offer not a new offer?

    A: When the UK Government suddenly realise it’s in purdah…

    Posted 9 years ago #

  30. chdot
    Admin

    "When the UK Government suddenly realise it’s in purdah"

    Only if they were really planning to offer something NEW - and realised they couldn't!(?)

    Posted 9 years ago #

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