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White Paper (THE #indyref thread)

(2915 posts)
  • Started 11 years ago by Morningsider
  • Latest reply from chdot
  • This topic is closed

  1. chdot
    Admin

    AS: But Ma'am the latest poll said that most people in Scotland want you to stay on as Queen.

    QE: I know. I was just humouring that Mr. Cameron - he doesn't seem to know what's going on.

    AS: I didn't doubt that you understand we want to run things differently - after all you have several homes here.

    QE: The PM seems to think that a few more scare stories on the front pages of the London paper will make everyone vote No.

    AS: Thank you Ma'am. I look forward to welcoming you to an Independent Scotland.

    QE: I look forward to coming.

    Posted 10 years ago #
  2. chdot
    Admin

    "

    The Queen will not publicly back the Union ahead of Scotland’s independence referendum, Buckingham Palace has said.

    "

    http://www.thecourier.co.uk/news/politics/queen-will-not-back-the-union-ahead-of-independence-referendum-1.422113

    Posted 10 years ago #
  3. gkgk
    Member

    @gembo

    "waste money setting up our own embassies etc."

    The UK shares embassies with Canada. The Nordic countries all share embassies. Moving some desks about, costs minimal.

    On the other hand, Canada and the Nords' political systems better reflected their population views (I think) and kept them out of Afghanistan. We've spent £37 billion there so far (approx 140 billion Ferrero Roche).

    Posted 10 years ago #
  4. kaputnik
    Moderator

    GKGK Of course, the only rock-solid, final, churn-free Decideds are the postal voters who've posted

    Which is the whole point in the Purdah. Everyone is meant to be voting on the same offer on the table and why anything else offered by WM is outside the terms of the Edinburgh Agreement. What it means is a substantial group of voters have voted on what they were told was an in/out | yes/no independence referendum only for WM to tell them it's potentially an in/out/perhaps | yes/no/maybe independence or Devo-more referendum. Maybe.

    The only WM high heidyin who appears to be talking sense right now is Nick Clegg, who much like Ronan Keating, says it best when he says nothing at all.

    Posted 10 years ago #
  5. gibbo
    Member

    If I were paranoid, I'd think that royal baby is a result of Cameron telling them to "get at it in order to save the Union."

    Posted 10 years ago #
  6. kaputnik
    Moderator

    "Now close your eyes and think of England"

    Personally I don't think this announcement will matter much either way, and could be construed as well or ill-timed depending on your point of view.

    There will be some who think the royal baby trump-card will get people hankering for monarchy and maybe light a little warm glow for union in them.

    Then there will be others who will point out that one more child born into a life of luxury, privilege and patronage will pale into insignificance when they're making the point about the tens of thousands born into poverty and dead-end despair and almost no opportunity.

    And those who just don't care, just won't care.

    Londo-union media will go nuts for this though. Wonder if they will push indyref stuff to the hidden depths of their publications next to the timeshare and bathknight adverts or try and link the two issues together. "SAVE THE UNION FOR THE BABY".

    It's good material for much satire.

    * "The only WM high heidyin who appears to be talking sense right now is Nick Clegg, who much like Ronan Keating, says it best when he says nothing at all."

    I feel I have to take that statement back. He opened his mouth and a lot of drivel (or was that dribble?) came out about the No vote being for a "guaranteed, safe path to more powers". And that's not any guarantee, that's a Nick Clegg guarantee. You can put that in the bank. (At the back, next to the one about English student tuition fees.)

    Posted 10 years ago #
  7. chdot
    Admin

  8. Nelly
    Member

    Don't tell Darling, he might revoke some of the weekends panic measures.

    Posted 10 years ago #
  9. gembo
    Member

    That latest poll has some quite divisive data. Women voting no, old folk voting no and rich folk voting no.

    Men voting yes, young folk yes and poor folk yes

    Young poor men can always join the new Scottish army as it won't be involved in any wars

    Posted 10 years ago #
  10. Instography
    Member

    There's a few interesting things about the most recent polls. The first is that only YouGov have shown a big swing to Yes. The TNS poll, whose fieldwork finished around the same time as YouGov shows only +3% Yes among those certain/very likely to vote where YouGov is +12%. For both of them DK is much the same as their usual and TNS' level is still very high. In both cases, you'd expect DK to be falling but it isn't.

    And, of course, Panelbase - the pollster most likely to show the highest levels of Yes support throughout has shown no gain at all in this period.

    So, something weird is happening. I was pondering this today alongside some analysis by Alan Renwick of Reading University, which I think has been mentioned already. This shows that the percentage in favour of Yes in most referendums falls between the final poll and the actual vote, by an average of 11 points.

    It got me wondering - what if it's not that there's a late swing back. What if actually the polls are wrong? Because then instead of explaining why people changed their minds, you'd have explain why referendum polls are so consistently wrong and in the same direction when we don't see that with normal elections. Why is the track record for referendums comparatively poor when with elections it's generally very good? It got me wondering if it's not so much that there's a late swing back to the status quo but that in the run-up to the vote polls become biased by the participation of those with the highest levels of motivation - people who want to make their views known. You'd expect to see the proportion saying they're certain to vote increasing, which I'd need to have a look and see*, although the 91% telling TNS they are certain or very likely to vote is strikingly high. These motivated people would, in turn, be biased in favour of people who want change (compared with the status quo) so you'd see Yes support increasing.

    If that were the case, you'd see people signing up to online pollsters and being more willing to complete their surveys. Telephone pollsters would find it easier to get their surveys done. I've been told by a few people (anecdote alert) about calls from Ipsos MORI and their enthusiasm to finally be polled for the referendum. Face-to-face pollsters would see two things - interviewers would get their work done most easily by targeting houses with something in the window (and those would be predominately Yes things) and the people they approach would, because they're interested, be more likely to take part. I've been out with interviewers (not for the referendum) and watched them select houses that are most likely to match their quotas and have someone at home because their main priority is to get their interview target as quickly as possible.

    In all cases, the surveys only need to match broad demographic quotas - age, sex, working status - so interviewing stops when the target number and quotas are met. You can see in the TNS tables where they're having difficulty with their quotas. Overall, they're about 60 interviews short but not short at all in Glasgow (usually the toughest place to get interviews). You can see where the unweighted total is smaller than the weighted - men, under 55s, ABC1 social groups, and in the West (apart from Glasgow), Central and Lothians.

    And you wouldn't need many extra-motivated people to have an effect. An extra 50 people out of 1000 being motivated for change and keen to take part would get you a 5% swing.

    Maybe all it does is suggest what will happen when the turnout inevitably falls below the level suggested by the certain to vote figures - the people who say they are certain but not actually as motivated as they claim to be are less likely to vote and that impacts on Yes disproportionately.

    Anyway, that's all very speculative but if Renwick's analysis suggests there will be a gap between the polling and the result and Scotland follows that pattern, the polling will all be wrong, which would be a bit of a disaster for the pollsters since I can't see any way of estimating in advance show big that gap would be and if it's down to motivation and willingness to take part in surveys, it's not a thing you can deal with by weighing.

    * between TNS' August poll and this one, the percentage certain / very likely to vote has increased from 80% to 91%

    Posted 10 years ago #
  11. chdot
    Admin

    @Insto

    V interesting

    Hope you work it put before the 18th

    Posted 10 years ago #
  12. chdot
    Admin

  13. algo
    Member

    Here's an interesting (perhaps) alternative predictive analysis to the polls…

    http://billatnapier.wordpress.com/2014/08/31/analysis-of-trends-in-scottish-independence-big-data-analysis-of-bookmarker-odds/

    although I imagine the unpredictability of a referendum vote with a high turnout is as applicable to betting odds as it is to the polls

    Posted 10 years ago #
  14. I were right about that saddle
    Member

    Well I've been saying it for some time and I'll say it again. Now that the conservative and unionist parties are experiencing that feeling we all know of being woken brutally from a dream by the sensation of freefall, it is naturally incumbent on the true defender of our Bella Caledonia to step forward and be heard.

    Your Highness the Duke of Rothesay, Prince of Wales and High Steward of Scotland! Sir! Step forward and speak for your dear mother's realm lest it be rent assunder! There can be no constitutional bar on your majesty putting this matter to rest once and for all, by calling all loyal clansmen to vote No to the twin abominations of peace and democracy.

    Posted 10 years ago #
  15. chdot
    Admin

    "

    Scottish independence: Cameron and Miliband will miss PMQs

    "

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-29127725

    Posted 10 years ago #
  16. gembo
    Member

    In Glasgow today it was 1-0 yes to no stickers on lamp posts on way to my meeting. 4-2 yes to no on way back but also an indopependence sticker I liked with the word dope under a famous Scottish politician. As I hD just missed a train I took time to scrutinise the lamp posts and looks like the council have been trying to keep George sq sticker free as much evidence of sticker removal.

    Just gone passed a field of cut and harvested hay where someone has then ploughed the letters N and O. Just before Croy

    Posted 10 years ago #
  17. I were right about that saddle
    Member

    @gembo

    To be fair 'N' and 'O' just short of Croy may have been the beginning of 'NO SURRENDER'.

    Got talking to the blonde lady in front of me on the canal who thought you'd hailed her when you hailed me. She refused to believe either that I was Scottish or that I could see any advantage in independence. Very polite and polished though.

    Posted 10 years ago #
  18. crowriver
    Member

    Well I put two RIC stickers on pelican crossing signal posts last week. Since then, one has been removed entirely. The other got plastered with two 'NO THANKS' roundels, which in turn were covered with blue 'Yes' roundels.

    I have some spare stickers...

    Posted 10 years ago #
  19. kaputnik
    Moderator

    Last week it "wasn't about flags".

    Today, Downing Street tried to hoist a saltire, but it refused to be hoisted and it fell down. Lesson: if you're going to play flag stunts in front of rolling news, at least make sure you know how to hoist a flag.

    Also today, Odd "it's not about flags" Millibot was in Liverpool wrapping himself in the flag of Tenerife* with the Mayor of Liverpool. Lesson: if you're going to play a flag stunt infront of the media, at least check your vexilology is up to date.

    * They almost got it right. Chose a blue flag in pantone 280 (same as Union Flag) with a white St. Andrew cross on it. The trouble is that Pantone 300 (a sky blue) is the correct colour for a Scottish saltire and what they had was closest to the flag of Tenerife.

    Posted 10 years ago #
  20. gembo
    Member

    Really, there is a correct blue? Someone told me at the weekend that was undecided so you got lots of differnt blues?

    Was the original white bit not also silver?

    @ IWRATS, field not big enough for the other bit and still in east Dunbartonshire so plough,an farmer probably as pucker as the woman you were behind on towpath. She refused to believe you were Scottish? You sound quite Scottish. She refused to believe that you could see any advantage in independence? You were wearing a yes t-shirt. She may have pulled me up for my naw by refusing to believe it was a no sticker because it said naw?

    Apoplectic man this morning who I really worried for, as did his wife. Very loud horn honking by him five times and stopping his car in the middle of a junction as he thought I was tampering with a sticker which I was not, it was flapping and I was merely trying to tidy it. I suggested he should calm down, as did his wife but he was very red and a bit overweight. I was seriously concerned for him

    Posted 10 years ago #
  21. sallyhinch
    Member

    Had a very bizarre conversation with an older couple in Carlisle last weekend who told me that we'd soon not be able to cross the border and that 'they' (I think D&G council) were stifling debate and nobody who works in Education was allowed to have an opinion and their daughter, who lives there, was in fear of her job. Also someone else who believes that the minute Alex Salmond gets into power he's going to cancel elections and declare himself dictator...

    I assume things only get weirder from here on

    Posted 10 years ago #
  22. chdot
    Admin

    "I assume things only get weirder from here on"

    Depends on 'your' view of "weirder".

    The new party political Better Together broadcast talked about "we" creating the NHS, with shots of heroic(?) workers, John Smith and Donald Dewar plus 'presidential' message from Gordon Brown.

    Pretty impressive really considering they've only had a couple of days to realise the extent of the Labour voters' 'defection'.

    As someone said on Twitter "Deploy the John Smith Video and the War #bettertogether #indyref Have the Tories seen this ?"

    Posted 10 years ago #
  23. gembo
    Member

    Pretty weird already but maybe can get weirder

    Had very nice chat with couple in beer garden in the highest market town in England. Was with nine other no voters (demographic of dads I know mostly whitle middle age middle class)

    Felt guilty as I was joking that whenever woman put up the parasol the sun went away and then she sat with t-shirt on her head throughout the meal.

    Nearby town in neighbouring county describes itself on every sign as The Centre of Britain.

    As the farm we were staying at was four miles north of hadrians wall we covered several countries and counties in our climbs and descents.

    Posted 10 years ago #
  24. gembo
    Member

    @chdot - I am preferring instography's insightful analysis of the YouGov poll and the non movement of the other polls to your tabloid shorthand. There has been refusal to canvass under better together all along from some labour activists but labour is still the party of devolution so if that is what people want they should vote no this year and labour next year? If they want independence then they should vote yes.

    Posted 10 years ago #
  25. chdot
    Admin

    "to your tabloid shorthand"

    ??

    Posted 10 years ago #
  26. chdot
    Admin

    "labour is still the party of devolution"

    You saying the Tories and LibDems don't believe in devolution?

    (- or don't really believe in devolution?)

    Who really believes in federalism?

    Posted 10 years ago #
  27. chdot
    Admin

    "

    @iaingraydon: Malcolm Rifkind's boy on BBC3, John Smith's lassie on BBC2. Got to love the British establishment. #indyref

    "

    I suspect some Yessers think they will be voting against "The Establishment" - and the Queen too!

    (It's not about AS/WP)

    Posted 10 years ago #
  28. Morningsider
    Member

    There is no official shade of blue for the saltire. The Scottish Parliament's Education, Culture and Sport Committee agreed, on 18 February 2003, that:

    "...Pantone 300 is the correct colour of azure blue for the saltire. Our proposal will be a voluntary code and will not be statutory."

    So, only guidance.

    Posted 10 years ago #
  29. kaputnik
    Moderator

    Really, there is a correct blue? Someone told me at the weekend that was undecided so you got lots of differnt blues?

    As Morningsider says, the recommendation is Pantone 300, or another similarly sky-like azure blue. I believe it is a long-established convention that the blue must be lighter than the blue of the Union flag. (So says the Lord Lyon of Arms and the Ministry of Defence anyway.) So there's no official "right" blue, but heid flag honcho would suggest there is a "wrong" blue.

    One of the reasons there was never an "official" blue before this is that the flag arose in a time before colours could be accurately described and produced, and often it was the fastness of the dyes which were more important than the actual colour.

    Was the original white bit not also silver?

    In heraldry, white and silver are nearly always interchangeable - both being the same thing (argent).

    Posted 10 years ago #
  30. kaputnik
    Moderator

    but labour is still the party of devolution

    Unless you're Brian Wilson ;)

    Gordon Brown was batting around the idea of merging English and Scottish education systems back in June in one of his "Iron Chancellor in the wilderness" moments. He has since decided that more, not less, devolution is probably better. Well, better for his job security at the very least.

    Posted 10 years ago #

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