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White Paper (THE #indyref thread)

(2915 posts)
  • Started 11 years ago by Morningsider
  • Latest reply from chdot
  • This topic is closed

  1. chdot
    Admin

    "

    So the Renton test is simple: can your argument sway somebody like this fictional kid? Can you even put it into language he can have a conversation with you in?

    Scotland’s two biggest parties – Labour and the Scottish National Party – though they could never say what Renton says out loud, both have had to triangulate off the his basic outlook.

    So the argument in this referendum becomes about how best to resolve the problem of feeling exploited, alienated, powerless and poor: devolution, with even more to come, or separation.

    For Labour and the No campaign, it’s about saying: right, that’s the way we’ve been treated but with more devolved powers, and a change of government in London, we can make the feeling of oppression go away.

    For the SNP, Greens and radical independence groups it’s about saying, more or less, you’re right Mr Renton but from 19 September it’s a different ball game, and you will just have to either tolerate (or fight) anybody who is both effete and Scottish.

    "

    http://blogs.channel4.com/paul-mason-blog/scottish-indyref-renton-test/2325

    Posted 10 years ago #
  2. I were right about that saddle
    Member

    If it is a No vote come the 19th, I think every Westminster MP who comes to Scotland will do so to a background of the Darth Vader theme blaring from a fleet of tricycles.

    Once you've stopped taking something seriously its power is pretty much gone.

    Posted 10 years ago #
  3. Instography
    Member

  4. Baldcyclist
    Member

    Ah, odds, now if I started gambling I seriously would have a problem..

    BBC has been getting attacked again over it's reporting of the Yes campaigns news conference yesterday, and with regard to retailers comments.

    The BBC new package does seem markedly different from the reality of what happened at the debate....

    Copied from FB for those with no access....

    "

    Bella Caledonia:

    WOW...Have a look at these two videos...the first one show's Alex Salmond answering Nick Robinson's (BBC reporter!) question this afternoon at the international Press Conference

    [+] Embed the video | Video DownloadGet the Video Player
    The 2nd is what Nick reported on the 6'oclock news tonight...
    [+] Embed the video | Video DownloadGet the Video Player
    How he is getting away with this is unbelievable! I hope an inquiry is underway
    "

    Posted 10 years ago #
  5. chdot
    Admin

    "

    kevintoolis (@KevinToolis)
    12/09/2014 09:48
    @joycemcm @jamesmacm Salmond, a bully and a liar, shows every sign of being a Chavez. And you're fooling yourself. A yes vote mean #SNPLAND

    "

    https://twitter.com/kevintoolis/status/510349158122016770

    Posted 10 years ago #
  6. chdot
    Admin

    This may be strictly true, but I think Salmond (at least to his own satisfaction) answered the question by saying what he did. Bit odd, for someone of NR's experience, is the expectation of a precise answer to a precise question - FROM A POLITICIAN!

    "

    Nick Robinson (@bbcnickrobinson)
    11/09/2014 23:07
    To all tweeting about me saying that @AlexSalmond did not answer me : He DID answer re RBS but did NOT re why trust him not company bosses

    "

    https://twitter.com/bbcnickrobinson/status/510187852357836800

    More unusual/worrying was the presence of SNP supporters at the press conference.

    Some were spinning that the cheers for AS were by the international journalists - somewhat unlikely!

    Posted 10 years ago #
  7. chdot
    Admin

    "

    Downing St reception used to goad business chiefs into action

    It was at a reception at Downing Street on Monday evening that the prime minister issued a “call to arms” from Britain’s top executives to galvanise business into action over Scottish independence.

    David Cameron evoked Britain’s defeat of Hitler in the second world war as he spoke to an audience of more than 100 business leaders of the need to fight to keep the UK together.

    "

    http://www.ft.com/cms/s/2/4f9da738-39a5-11e4-83c4-00144feabdc0.html#axzz3D5hnjRcJ

    Posted 10 years ago #
  8. chdot
    Admin

    "

    @OpiniumResearch: Big #Opinium/Observer yes/no Scottish #indyref poll coming out at 8pm on Saturday #indypoll @YesScotland @UK_Together @tobyhelm

    "

    Posted 10 years ago #
  9. I were right about that saddle
    Member

    Let's just say that I'm a little disappointed that my Prime Minister has apparently likened my political activities to the Third Reich.

    Hell mend us if we fall for this transparent filth.

    Posted 10 years ago #
  10. kaputnik
    Moderator

    Beyond Dave's visit to Standard Life and a few press meetings on top of Calton Hill, I get the feeling that all the effort from Darn Sarf is being poured into Glasgow.

    Is this because Westminsterthink is that Glasgow needs "won back" by flooding it with Labour MPs and perhaps the 4 most unpopular prominent politicians in the UK, or that Edinburgh is going to vote a No majority anyway so why bother? This would suggest that their mission is not to stop Nos switching to Yes, but to stop undecideds voting Yes. Maybe they even are aiming for switching Yes voters back to No, by a herculean effort of standing on street corners shouting that if only there was an Anglo-Scottish football team then "we could beat the Germans".

    As one London city-boy tweetist made the mistake of putting it;

    "@OsDavies: No surprise that Edinburgh, a civilised, educated place is a No stronghold and Glasgow, a primitive dive, a Yes stronghold #BetterTogether".

    Note to self - ask Nigel Farridge what the I in UKIP stands for.

    Posted 10 years ago #
  11. chdot
    Admin

    "

    ROYAL Mile publicans have been warned to expect clashes between football fans during an Orange Order march through the city centre tomorrow.

    The Evening News understands pub owners have been told by police that groups of Hibs and Rangers fans are planning to cause trouble at the controversial event, being held just days before the referendum.

    "

    http://www.edinburghnews.scotsman.com/news/violence-warning-ahead-of-orange-order-march-1-3539494

    Posted 10 years ago #
  12. chdot
    Admin

    "

    From my analysis, it looks like the Yes campaign will beat the No campaign on polling day. As I write this I am personally very disappointed as I think Scotland would be stronger in the union. We predicted it correctly for the Mayor of London, and Obama vs Romney – so we do have a track of calling these things.

    "

    http://blog.majesticseo.com/research/scottish-election-poll

    Posted 10 years ago #
  13. chdot
    Admin

    "

    Scottish independence: advantage no, but we need more polls

    "

    Of course we do...!

    "

    Since August 1, 17 polls have been released, of which only one had yes ahead. With less than a week to go it’s still advantage no, but a narrowing gap and polling uncertainties make it a close race

    "

    http://www.theguardian.com/news/datablog/2014/sep/12/scottish-independence-advantage-no-but-we-need-more-polls

    Posted 10 years ago #
  14. Stickman
    Member

    Note to self - ask Nigel Farridge what the I in UKIP stands for.

    I think Farage's viewpoint is that Scotland may get independence from Westminster but would not be independent from Brussels, and people should be aware of that when voting.

    I'm not saying that he's right or wrong, but he is being consistent with his own beliefs.

    Posted 10 years ago #
  15. kaputnik
    Moderator

    So he's not against the idea of "independence" per se, he just has his own particular definition of it. An "independent" Scotland in the EU would not therefore actually be an independent country, in the same way that Austria, Belgium, Bulgaria, Croatia, Cyprus, Czech Republic, Denmark, Estonia, Finland, France, Germany, Greece, Hungary, Ireland, Italy, Latvia, Lithuania, Luxembourg, Malta, Netherlands, Poland, Portugal, Romania, Slovakia, Slovenia, Spain and Sweden are not independent countries. Good luck to him persuading the 505 million citizens of those countries that this is the case.

    I guess under the Farage definition of independence, Switzerland, Iceland and Norway are the only real independent countries in Europe.

    P.S. sorry for the country list, I realise it wasn't really necessary. It's an old technique I picked up off of Clement Freud to pad out 60 seconds of time.

    Another note to self - Just a minute would be a perfect format for doing an indyref debate. Keeps politician waffling time down, keeps politicians to the point and prevents them deviating, repeating or hesitating.

    Posted 10 years ago #
  16. Stickman
    Member

    @kaputnik

    Yep, that probably sums up his view!

    Your Just A Minute idea is great - in the event of independence this should be how the new parliament operates!

    Posted 10 years ago #
  17. Instography
    Member

    This is a man who thinks 75% of our legislation emanates from Brussels so he would say that none of those countries is independent. Neither would Switzerland and Norway, since I think they automatically adopt EU legislation even though they are not in the EU.

    Which in many ways brings us back to the start, to the notion of independence itself and what it can possibly mean in a world where national governments have voluntarily ceded sovereignty so that they can create larger markets within which to trade.

    Posted 10 years ago #
  18. SRD
    Moderator

  19. I were right about that saddle
    Member

    I wonder if the tricycle rickshaw will greet Farage in Glasgow? I'm hoping they play the Laurel and Hardy theme if they do.

    Posted 10 years ago #
  20. kaputnik
    Moderator

    Ode to Joy?

    Posted 10 years ago #
  21. Instography
    Member

    I'm not sure about point 3 - an independent Scotland starting out debt-free. Even if it took none of the UK debt, it would very quickly have to acquire a substantial level of debt.

    Let's say Scotland becomes independent on 24 March 2016, without a currency union and refusing any debt. I assume that one of the penalties would be that Scotland would have no share of the UK reserves of around £43bn. So Scotland starts debt-free but also with substantially diminished collateral to reassure lenders. My guess is that bankers, being rapacious souls, would see that as an opportunity to make some money.

    So, not Wonga levels obviously but what does your colleague reckon the interest rate premium, if any, would be?

    Posted 10 years ago #
  22. Stickman
    Member

    One thing that this debate has done is throw together some very odd bedfellows (George Galloway and Ruth Davidson last night!).

    Here's a Fellow of the Adam Smith Institute arguing that RBS and Lloyds moving registration to London would be a good thing for an independent Scotland:

    http://www.forbes.com/sites/timworstall/2014/09/11/rbs-lloyds-leaving-scotland-would-be-good-news-for-scottish-independence/

    Posted 10 years ago #
  23. Stickman
    Member

    And here's Fraser Nelson discussing "intimidation" by the Yes campaigners

    http://blogs.spectator.co.uk/coffeehouse/2014/09/how-scotlands-yes-side-mastered-the-art-of-mob-politics/

    (To be fair, the guy he encountered yesterday does sound like a loony)

    Posted 10 years ago #
  24. kaputnik
    Moderator

    George Galloway and Ruth Davidson last night

    Georgeous was previously quoted saying he couldn't/wouldn't get involved if it required standing on a podium with conservatives and Union Jacks. This in the same interview when he was giving his wisdom that Darling lacked the common touch in the East End of Glasgow and George should give it a try instead while Alistair stayed home to "do the numbers", all under the leadership of people's friend Gordon Ironbroon.

    Posted 10 years ago #
  25. I were right about that saddle
    Member

    @stickman

    The idea of the rolling mass-enthusiasm shambles that is Yes Scotland mastering anything, let alone political thuggery is pretty far-fetched. Scotland had, has and will continue to have a proud tradition of harbouring a small number of bampots. Some of them will doubtless march with the Orange Order on Saturday.

    I canvassed a lady last night who insisted I'd got her out of bed despite the fact she was dressed for an office job circa 1955, and who went on to inform me that she was English and had no time for 'Scottishism'. This is after all a local referendum for local people.

    Posted 10 years ago #
  26. Stickman
    Member

    I've certainly not seen any evidence of "intimidation" in Edinburgh but to be honest I give both Yes and No campaigners a wide berth when I see them.

    Posted 10 years ago #
  27. chdot
    Admin

    "

    @GdnScotland: BREAKING: Scottish #indyref too close to call says ICM @guardian poll > 42% no, 40% yes, but a full 17% undecided http://t.co/pSmwv00Zl7

    "

    This is getting silly - MASSIVE difference between polls for DKs.

    Posted 10 years ago #
  28. wingpig
    Member

    "This is after all a local referendum for local people."

    Are any of the polls asking anything like "how long have you lived here?" or "have you made what you would consider a reasonably permanent home here, or are you just up here working on a medium-length contract?" or "are you to some extent attached here by family/property, irrespective of your place of birth or the nationality stated on your passport?" sorts of things, alongside the "how did you vote in the most recent election" stuff they're declaring?

    Posted 10 years ago #
  29. crowriver
    Member

    Here's Jon Stewart's take on the #indyref

    [+] Embed the video | Video DownloadGet the Video Player

    Posted 10 years ago #
  30. SRD
    Moderator

    @insto - reply to your query:

    "We shouldn't see reserves as collateral for government debt, but rather as the means by which a country intervenes (if it wishes to) to support the value of the currency. Think only about the size of Bank of England reserves relative to the UK government debt to see that reserves can have no collateral effect. Even for intervention in the currency markets, the lesson of Black Wednesday in 1992 is that the UK's reserves are in now way adequate to allow the UK government to determine the value of the currency in this way. The difference between no reserves and, say, £4 billion wouldn't stop Scotland being in the same position.

    An independent Scotland would have to borrow to meet its fiscal deficit and finance any legacy debts it assumes. My point was only that it's better to start at as low a debt to GDP level as possible, and the markets will price a relatively low level more favourably.

    On the million dollar final question, there are simply too many uncertainties to try to put a sensible figure on it. Some issues to bear in mind, though:

    1. Scotland would almost certainly be rated below rUK (Moodys goes for a A rating), although the lower the debt, the higher the rating. Not a disastrous rating by any means, but below rUK. There's so much going on in government bond yields that we have to be very cautious about extrapolating much, but the difference between Austria (AA+) to Slovakia (A) is of the order of 0.50% on ECB figures. The increase in UK indebtedness if Scotland didn't assume the debt seems likely to immaterial to the rating.
    2. Smaller, less liquid borrowers nearly always borrow at higher yields than the market benchmark. Finland borrows (to the extent it borrows) at a higher yield than Germany, for example. It's not usually a large gap, though: about 0.25% on the latest ECB figures. Scotland would obviously be a smaller, less liquid borrower than the UK.
    3. These governments are all obviously borrowing in euros, a currency none of them can print at will. So these guesstimates might hold for both Scotland and the rUK borrowing in euros or dollars. The Bank of England can print as many pounds as it wishes. The impact of that for relative borrowing costs then depends on negotiations on monetary relations between the two countries. So, frustratingly, we're back where we started. It is worth noting, however, that countries borrow in currencies they can't print all the time, even ignoring the special case of the euro. The UK has borrowed in euros and US dollars, Italy has borrowed in sterling and yen, Denmark and Sweden in most major currencies etc. The potential issue for Scotland could be the size of such borrowing relative to GDP, but the market reaction would not be a theatrical 'You want to do whaaat?'
    4. Finally, there are a series of technical issues around this question, which have unsurprisingly not surfaced in the debate. Repo markets, bank liquidity requirements and many more. One is worth highlighting: the nature of domestic demand for any government debt. This will make a huge difference. Would domestic pension funds be required to hold Scottish government debt? Would individual investors be actively courted? Braveheart bonds, anyone?"

    Posted 10 years ago #

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