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White Paper (THE #indyref thread)
(2915 posts)- Started 10 years ago by Morningsider
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Posted 9 years ago #
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Spent a lot of time talking to old people living on their own, used to that as our cinema in Balerno is largely supported by older people supporting us and seeing a film in company with a glass of wine.
Showed you the door? Ie did you like the nice gloss paint finish or she actually huckled you from her premises?
Bit of a downbeat end to l'homme du train? But then the entirety of early doors is downbeat except when the granny does her karaoke which I see as a great punching.
Posted 9 years ago # -
@chdot Thanks for the long reply. I dunno if turning yourself into a small state is the best way of fighting global capitalism and this awful money-making elite divorced from responsibility without even patriarchal virtues which meant tho' you might live in the manor you'd look after your own peasantry- however I can't think of any other way either..
@ Various others It's not true that people don't take part in politics as they do as single issue campaigners (often of a NIMBY nature) - they just don't take part in party politics. Whether the kind of upset we have seen means parties reforming themselves or more of those who discovered activism via the Neverendum creating or reforming parties is another story. Political activity is a long slog - as campaigning cyclists know.
What I have seen in the Neverendum is those who would normally be campaigning about this or that - bedroom tax, food banks - pinning all their hopes on a new iScotland. So masses of campaigning hours have been spent on this - which may end up being futile. Politics has been dominated in what does boil down to nationalistic politics. Because when you scrape a leftish Yes campaigner they'll be talking about the need for radical change etc and then it comes down to "if it's a mess, it's OUR mess," - which is certainly a nicer nationalism than **** the Sassenachs (though there's a bit of that) - but still nationalistic.
So the political scene has been taken over. And in the event of an iScotland we'd be in for years of negotiations with a nationalistic flavour.
And those of us who are Noes are now having to go activist on this as well - which ticks me off no end as what energies I have I'd rather spend on something more productive - cycling provision is one thing that springs to mind.
Posted 9 years ago # -
@Rosie Thanks for thanks.
You're a No but say "however I can't think of any other way either" - which sounds like a reluctant Yes!
"now having to go activist on this as well" - I understand how you'd rather do other things!
After the vote what do you 'expect you'll have to do'? (Presume different depending on outcome?)
Posted 9 years ago # -
If what spurs activism is a belief in something then even if it's reluctant activism, it can never be a bad thing.
Posted 9 years ago # -
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No wonder so many fund managers prefer a house in the leafy suburbs and a quick jog across the Meadows to work instead.
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Posted 9 years ago # -
I'm a very hearty No - not for economic reasons. I thoroughly resent people trying to cut my state down to one third its size and 95% of its population.
If people think that a smaller state based on a nationalistic movement is going to get them away from global capitalism they're living in a dream world.
After the vote - what do I 'expect' I'll have to do? Well, with a Yes vote deal with whatever hideous financial consequences there may be from it. The firm I work for (commercial lawyers - I'm a legal secretary) went through redundancies and short-time after the last great shock. We've recovered - but we deal a lot with financial services and this may give us another going over. On the other hand we also deal with contracts between government bodies and IT systems - so that might give us more work to do in the short term at least.
I'd be happier if there was an overwhelming desire for independence. I wouldn't share it - but it'd be a fact of life and so be it. This split means that in the event of a No vote we could go through the whole divisive, disruptive, bad tempered, anxiety-raising process all over again.
Shouldn't complain over much - it could be the Balkans where stuff like this was sorted with civil war.
Posted 9 years ago # -
Oh - and when I said I can't think of any other way either - that was badly written. I meant I can't think of ANY way - not that I know much about the subject.
Posted 9 years ago # -
@Rosie Thanks.
"not that I know much about the subject"
Well, can anyone trust the ones that say they do, when it all involves unknown unknowns!
Voting decisions will be made on a mixture of pre-judging (prejudice?), research/listening, gut feeling and fear/hope.
Any immediate judgement by 'the market' will be self-servingly opportunistic rather than sagely rational.
If Yes it won't all go according to the White Paper, nor will the Greens/RIC/Common Weal win in 2016.
If No perhaps a lot depends on the 2015 election - could Labour deliver on its recent 'promises' for Scotland and the whole UK? Would Tories/UKIP (not in a formal coalition sense) take UK out of Europe?
So many known unknowns.
Posted 9 years ago # -
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Asked if he would seek another referendum if there was a "No" vote on Thursday, the SNP leader said: "If you remember that previous constitutional referendum in Scotland - there was one in 1979 and then the next one was 1997."That's what I mean by a political generation.
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http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-29194220
So in the event of No - and the Salmond line holding - no call for another referendum in the 2016 SNP manifesto.
That's an unknown (almost) removed.
Posted 9 years ago # -
As for big decision democracy - I'm a certain No and others are a certain Yes. But I know undecideds who are responsible kinds who would far rather NOT be making a big decision like this, which could go badly wrong. At least with representative democracy you can blame the political a***holes who make the decisions... I wonder if this will make the voting public more charitable in their view of the political class?
Posted 9 years ago # -
surely that's a weakness of representative democracy? that it has led to a generation that has not had the experience of making meaningful decisions?
Posted 9 years ago # -
"a nationalistic movement "
I'm getting very tired of British nationalists using "nationalistic" as a derogatory term for the Yes movement. As though somehow supporting the union is not nationalistic.
Rosie, it is clear you identify with the UK and Britishness. That's your right, but don't try and pretend that your belief in the UK is not nationalism: it is. I understand why you might feel that way: the myth of Britishness not being "nationalistic" has been peddled by the UK establishment ever since the Empire started to crumble. It's a comforting form of reassurance that allows Brits to assuage any residual guilt about conquering and running the largest empire in world history. In a way it's a kind of reclaiming of Britishness to attempt to be inclusive, multi-cultural and diverse. That myth may have still held some purchase in the 1960s and 1970s, the era of the civil rights movement, popular opposition to Vietnam, and a changing relationship between the generations. The myth rings rather hollow today, in the post-Thatcherite, neo-liberal era where unfettered capital has been in the ascendant.
It's another comforting myth to (paradoxically) characterise the Yes movement as a bunch of idealistic grands naifs, refusing to deal with the harsh realities of the world. It's a narrative that reassures those who listen that they are making the right choice, being sensible, feet on the ground. The state they defend encourages such identification of the UK with comfort, when the current situation provides little comfort for anyone who is not wealthy. The related exaggeration of the risks associated with Scottish independence seeks to make the coming misery of UK austerity policies seem relatively rosy in comparison.
Those of us on the Yes side of the argument see these claims for the untruths they are. We can respect opposing viewpoints, of course. I just ask this: if activism is based on belief, what is it exactly that constitutes that belief? What is it based upon? Analysis of the current situation in the UK, or rather reassuring myths to sweeten the bitter medicine of austerity?
Posted 9 years ago # -
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Paul Mason @paulmasonnews Sep 13
Deutsche’s “Wall Street Crash” prediction = interesting but not evidenced in 2 page report. It’s in a foreword. And all headlines #Indyref----
Paul Mason @paulmasonnews Sep 13
Read the Deutsche “Scottish Wall Street Crash” report here:
http://t.co/iCv8meLaAXWords come from foreword under one man’s signature
----
Posted 9 years ago # -
Aside from the Orange Order. The No campaign doesn't wave the Union flag, either literally or figuratively, anywhere near as much as Yes waves the Saltire.
Posted 9 years ago # -
@stiltskin but that is surely a pragmatic political decision, because they realise that it would put off many potential supporters? I also think they would have struggled to get their canvassers, campaigners to wear it or wave it.
Posted 9 years ago # -
@stiltskin, this was on the Beeb last night:
Royal Albert Hall, Last Night of the Proms. Happens every year.
Oh, and this starts tonight, the Invictus Games, with royal patronage:
Whereas this was roundly condemned by the UK media:
So, according to official narratives:
British nationalism = good
Scottish nationalism/any other nationalism that's not British = badPosted 9 years ago # -
When it comes to nationality, I just look at my passport, so that provides my answer. In terms of your pictures. I wasn't aware that the Japanese were supporting No.
Let me put it this way. I know quite a number of people who are saying their choice is between their Heart and their Head. Guess which side is which?
@SRD, well that is my point. If No is a 'British Nationalism' campaign as crowriver likes to twist it, Why should that be? Why would it put off their supporters?Posted 9 years ago # -
There is no British nation, so Britishism is not exactly nationalism. The union flag is redolent of empire and many other things, not all positive.
Posted 9 years ago # -
@stiltskin, my point was that waving the Union Jack is normalised, officially sanctioned and accepted nationalism in official narratives. Waving the saltire, by contrast, is seen as a provocation to official narratives, as "nationalistic" and therefore A Bad Thing.
That you appear to have internalised these narratives shows how effective they are at bolstering British nationalism.
That a different situation regarding flag waving pertains to the contemporary Scottish context, is largely to do with the use of British symbolism by hardline Unionism of the variety favoured in the counties of Ulster, and propagated by the Orange Order, their followers and sympathisers.
It was not always like this. Flying the Union Jack was, in living memory, as normal in Scotland as referring to this part of the island as North Britain. I think something changed around the time of the onset of the Troubles in Northern Ireland. The violent suppression of a civil rights movement by those wrapping themselves in the Union Jack gave it rather different connotations. A somewhat authoritarian UK Prime Minister in the 1980s who was also fond of flying the Union Jack, created negative associations with the idea of Britishness in many Scots too.
So, things change, perceptions change as history unfolds. To fly the Union Jack in Scotland these days is to make a particular statement about British nationalism, set in opposition to a Scottish nationalism.
Posted 9 years ago # -
I find myself in a distinctive group with Billy Connolly, George Galloway voting Noo because I am an internationalist. I wish to unite with England, Wales and Ireland not separate. I have friends who are also internationalists but have convinced themselves that separating and forming a small nation north of England is a radical thing to do.
This is almost a dominant ideology. Scotland has many old traditions of insularity and stubborn head in the sand type attitudes, including the xenophobia towards the English that exists in part within some sections. See also hard drinking, chauvinism etc. None of this is going away if a yes vote wins the day. None of it is going away if a No vote prevails.
I feel we need to reach out and connect with neighbours on common causes not set up an independent state and create false differences.
Wih some exceptions I also find less humour on the Yes side and I like a laugh.
Saw a dog on the royal mile today wearing a t-shirt that said I Am Undecided.
Posted 9 years ago # -
Union flag please crowriver
Salmond also smuggled saltire into centre court where flags are banned in his wife's handbag IIRC
(Both of the above intended as humour)
Posted 9 years ago # -
@SRD, I would contend that it is a Union nationalism, an imperial state nationalism; and south of the border, one that conflates Britishness with Englishness. The latter is a nationalism that in modern times (until recently) rarely expressed itself. Rather it was cloaked in and subsumed by British nationalism, with the mythos of inclusivity: all peoples in the Empire could be British.
Posted 9 years ago # -
@SRD No such thing as a British nation ? That is a very particular viewpoint. It reminds me of the view that 'the British nation is an artificial construct, that is why I am a Scottish Nationalist.' Whereas the truth of the matter is that 'Because I am a Scottish Nationalist I believe Britain is an artificial construct. '
Posted 9 years ago # -
This is a rather indelible image of British nationalism flying the Union Jack which sums up the mentality in my opinion:
Posted 9 years ago # -
Shocking picture - does look more like a Union Jack there
1606 you know James VI when Scots helped out the englanders
Posted 9 years ago # -
maybe this for example? All you are doing is reinforcing the stereotypes you choose to believe in. Rather than putting out these pictures just say. 'I'm voting yes' and we will have a good idea of your views on A variety of UK related subjects
Posted 9 years ago # -
@stiltskin, all nationalisms are constructs, just as identity itself is one. I would rather say British nationalism is a composite construct. Similar (though not identical) examples where individual former nationalities are/were subsumed with a larger dominant nationalism include, in no particular order:
Belgium
Spain
Italy
Yugoslavia*
United States of America
The former Scandinavian Union of Norway, Sweden, Denmark, Finland
Soviet Union** - Of course in both these cases the official ideology was 'internationalist' and anti-nationalist. However, if stiltskin's "passport test" of nationality means anything, then these were nations with "nationality".
Posted 9 years ago # -
@stiltskin, I don't think it's any secret on this forum that I'm voting Yes. I have been clear about that since the start of this thread. Others have not been so candid, but that's their prerogative.
Posted 9 years ago # -
Another interesting page on the CCE referendum thread - it's my first stop GoTo referendum page now that the guardian's got an embargo on any information that might have us choose to vote Yes.
Two thoughts from this page:
I don't think it's right to begrudge the time we have to spend making big decisions about what form of government to have. The machinery of democracy surely needs occasional attention, review, update, and probably takes less time than my updating Adobe Acrobat every month. There were choices re assemblies in 2004, PR the other year, boundary changes etc. It's not the Yes campaign's fault that we have a choice, any more than it's the No camp's fault.
Second thought - I agree about the use of "nationalist" being misleading and manipulative. I would have Scotland join in a 15% voting rights political match with Norway or Sweden or Denmark or half a dozen others before England, because the politics are a better fit. I don't think that is nationalism at all. The English media has a very firm misunderstanding of the referendum.
Posted 9 years ago #
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