CityCyclingEdinburgh Forum » Debate!

White Paper (THE #indyref thread)

(2915 posts)
  • Started 11 years ago by Morningsider
  • Latest reply from chdot
  • This topic is closed

12…98

  1. Morningsider
    Member

    Transport highlights from a quick scan of the White Paper.

    No mention of cycling.
    Anglo-Scottish High Speed Rail a priority.
    Reducing air passenger duty a priority.
    Introduce a fuel duty regulator - cap petrol/diesel price increase.
    Carry on with current road building plans.
    Continue with plans to decarbonise road/rail transport.
    Consider other models of rail provision after expiry of next franchises in 2025/2030.
    Carry on using all 13 UK transport agencies (DVLA, CAA etc) until other arrangements can be made.

    I think it is remarkably light on detail and clearly represents "Business as usual" as far as transport matters go.

    Posted 11 years ago #

  2. chdot
    Admin

    Sadly not surprised.

    Must find the intelligent conversation/thread 'we' had on referendum/independence a while ago.

    As I probably said on that - whatever the referendum outcome there is no guarantee (or indeed realistic prospect) that there will be an SNP majority Government for ever.

    At the moment there is general 'unthinkingness' - particularly in the No-leaning press - that the SG and the SNP are the same thing (more or less true) and that the Yes campaign is the same as the SG/SNP (not true).

    The Yes campaign is a coalition of parties/people - not least with one that has MSPs, the Greens. Clearly they don't have much influence when the SNP has a majority of seats, but 'normal' voter fickleness means that that is unlikely to be the case for ever.

    Obviously the Greens have to make it clear that their vision is for a less 'business as usual' approach - BUT I think it's also important to keep the pressure up on the current SNP Gov about walking/cycling/ActiveTravel/BIGtransport.

    Roll on PoP3.

    Posted 11 years ago #

  3. Dave
    Member

    These days I hope that some of Westminster will rub off on Holyrood, not that they'll be unchained.

    A big fat 'no way' from me.

    Posted 11 years ago #

  4. SRD
    Moderator

    'one reference to the bike'

    https://twitter.com/nuttyxander/status/405311337523593216/photo/1/large

    Posted 11 years ago #

  5. Morningsider
    Member

    SRD - I wouldn't call having "pedal bicycle" as part of a word cloud of things "invented" in Scotland on page 91 a reference.

    Posted 11 years ago #

  6. crowriver
    Member

    chdot has it pretty much spot on.

    I don't think it would be wise to base your vote in the referendum next year on the SNP's cycling policy (or lack of one).

    If Scots vote yes next September then there will be interesting times ahead, a lot of negotiations, and the SNP may not get everything they want (eg. Trident gone in the course of one Parliament, ie. by 2021 may be optimistic). I would imagine the Scottish wings of 'unionist' parties (Labour, Conservative, Lib Dems) would go into crises of identity (and funding) post-independence. SNP itself might split once its primary goal is achieved. So we might face a European style 'rainbow coalition' in 2016.

    In any case there would be lots of possibilities and plenty of scope for pressing for transport policy changes, whoever forms the next Scottish government.

    Posted 11 years ago #

  7. Dave
    Member

    I haven't managed to work up much of a froth about it because the yes campaign has got such a massive mountain to climb.

    The 'no' guys have got a class combination of FUD on the go and I'm really not sure the SNP can dispel those concerns.

    No sterling = SNP refuse to accept their share of national debt = collapse of domestic banking system is pretty much a killer argument when you work in finance.

    Posted 11 years ago #

  8. Smudge
    Member

    A large wish list written by people who steadfastly refuse to discuss detail and some of whom peddle untruths in areas I know about.
    Working in defence I'd need my head examined if I voted yes based on current information, and as far as transport policy goes they seem stuck in the late 50's as far as I can tell.
    A shame as in many ways I'd love to see an independent Scotland flourishing, but this referendum is a no-brainer for me.

    Posted 11 years ago #

  9. cc
    Member

    The No campaign has nothing on its side but huge steaming piles of FUD. I don't believe a word of it.

    I'm reminded of that Terry Pratchett observation - "the pious Scots, locked throughout history in a long-drawn-out battle with their arch-enemies the Scots"

    Posted 11 years ago #

  10. crowriver
    Member

    @Dave, that's a classic example of taking the absolute worst case scenario and pushing it to the extremes.

    Funny how the 'no' campaign just spout fear mongering about the SNP's plans. Very little detail on what would happen if Scotland votes 'no'. Oh wait, Cameron let the mask slip two weeks ago at the Lord Mayor's Banquet: the future for the UK is 'permanent austerity'. That's what we have to look forward to.

    Which is fine if you plenty of private wealth to fall back on, like many of the ministers in the Westminster coalition. Not so great for us plebs who rely upon public services though.

    Posted 11 years ago #

  11. Baldcyclist
    Member

    Ideological question for me, the practicalities will sort themselves in time. Maybe a longer time than some would hope for, and we may not be richer, or poorer after a vote, but none of that really matters in the long term.

    Posted 11 years ago #

  12. chdot
    Admin

    Previous thread -

    "YesScotland: not for cyclists"

    http://www.citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=9665

    Comment there - or here - or both (personal choice!)

    Posted 11 years ago #

  13. DaveC
    Member

    Dave Said "These days I hope that some of Westminster will rub off on Holyrood, not that they'll be unchained.

    A big fat 'no way' from me.

    Sums up my thoughts too. Also watching the bitching in the Scots parliament, and the arrogance of the leader of the party in power, leave me very put off.

    Posted 11 years ago #

  14. Instography
    Member

    The currency is key because it will determine the scope of monetary and fiscal policy. Based on current preferences, the future of the UK (and each of its constituent parts) is permanent austerity regardless of the outcome of the referendum. The Scottish Government's commitment to monetary union with Sterling is a commitment to accepting monetary policy being determined by the rUK Government and the Bank of England, which doesn't upset the SNP much since their economics are broadly similar to the coalition's. Indeed, they plan to race them to the bottom of the Laffer curve by cutting business taxes.

    Posted 11 years ago #

  15. PS
    Member

    As far as I know, there is absolutely nothing about the current consitutional set up of the UK that prevents cycling provision in Scotland being radically improved today. Despite all the "look to the Nordics" chat, I've seen hee-haw that actually suggests that independence will lead to us seeing anything like Copenhagen any time soon...

    Posted 10 years ago #

  16. crowriver
    Member

    there is absolutely nothing about the current consitutional set up of the UK that prevents cycling provision in Scotland being radically improved today.

    Perhaps not, but there is something about the way politics works in the UK that prevents it. Would an independent Scotland do cyclists any more favours? I don't know, but the seat of full power being closer to home might help.

    Despite all the "look to the Nordics" chat

    I suspect the country the SNP are currently looking at is Norway. Oil, wealthy, 4x4s everywhere. Cycling not particularly visible last time I visited (Stavanger), but good buses and fully electrified railways.

    Posted 10 years ago #

  17. minus six
    Member

    The drivers of Norway give way at junctions

    It will take Scotland 50 years to achieve that

    Posted 10 years ago #

  18. crowriver
    Member

    I found an image of a bicycle in the SNP/Scot Gov white paper. Can be read in a variety of ways!

    Posted 10 years ago #

  19. Charterhall
    Member

    Looking at the front pages of the so called UK papers today this story is such a non story, the only real story in town is Nigella. Who cares about the future of Scotland when there's a celebrity court case to write about.

    Posted 10 years ago #

  20. gembo
    Member

    This thread similar in use of information as the helmet wars? The white paper isn't a white paper, it doesn't set out a legislative framework. it is just opinion. Thus it does nothing to sway the opinions of those of us who post.

    There are small countries that do well Norway and Denmark. They tax their citizens at a much higher rate than the UK.

    No party in Scotland has ever tried to exercise the powers existing already to raise or lower taxation.

    I am sticking to factual statements

    Posted 10 years ago #

  21. chdot
    Admin

    "I am sticking to factual statements"

    Is that a factual statement?

    Posted 10 years ago #

  22. Roibeard
    Member

    @crowriver - Can be read in a variety of ways!

    Thankfully little Gregor was wearing a helmet when he hit a random spike whilst riding on the world class cycling infrastructure.

    Or am I in the wrong thread?

    Robert

    Posted 10 years ago #

  23. chdot
    Admin

    "

    If there was a serious new vision for local transport and accessibility, and of reducing rather than expanding the need to travel, it would undoubtedly feature in this 650-page document. Instead, the overall approach to transport is ‘business as usual’ – but more so.

    "

    http://www.spokes.org.uk/wordpress/2013/11/independent-of-cycling

    Posted 10 years ago #

  24. I were right about that saddle
    Member

    So, with only two hundred and twenty-eight days to go until we actually go into the booth and make our marks, I wonder if I could ask a favour of all you committed and well-informed people?

    Could we bring this thread back to life with everyone updating their thoughts? I think the referendum will likely be the only vote in my lifetime that will actually change anything, so I'm keen to have as much information and as much debate as possible with my fellow Scots (or should that be fellow North Britons?).

    My position at the moment is that I can't see a single reason to vote 'No'. I actually went and sought out my local chapter of Better Together, who were a charming and engaged mixture of local Labour and Tory party members, and argued with them for a few hours over a cup of tea. I was looking for positive reasons to vote 'No' and they had none, which was disappointing but understandable (Labour and Tories agree on nothing other than the capacity of Westminster to make good decisions - I struggle to think of a decent decision made there other than the accidental one not to attack Syria). I don't, for one moment, buy any of the scare stories about independence like border patrols at Carlisle or expulsion from the EU. I'm desperate to see a more democratic, more egalitarian Scotland and it looks like the referendum has handed me the only opportunity I may ever get to move the country in that direction.

    This seems like an excellent forum for the debate - which is about the distribution of power after all and often imbalance of power is at the heart of issues here. Spend your money on a car and roads, bridges, parking spaces and police are at your disposal. Spend your money on a bike and you're consigned to second class status, berated for for getting in the way of the powerful.

    So, anyone else care to declare their hand?

    Posted 10 years ago #

  25. wee folding bike
    Member

    I think I probably already have.

    I was at a meeting on Thursday where I was the only person with a bike but it might be getting to the point where they expect to see at least one bike there. It's likely to be black, folded and made in west London.

    I got to hear David Hayman, Pat Kane, Alex Neil and Jim Sillars. As far as I know only Mr Neil is a paid up member of the SNP. Pat Kane certainly isn't and Mr Sillars has reasons to not be… Margo being the most important of them. One of his jokes was that at the end of the evening he had to go home to a public meeting.

    David Hayman spoke about his charity, Pat Kane spoke about Pat Kane, Alex Neil spoke about how child poverty had enraged him in the '70s, when he was in Labour along with Jim Sillars, and it's still with us. Jim Sillars was the main speaker, he has a book to flog, and he had some interesting things to say. For the most part I just enjoyed his old fashioned style of oratory. It still works.

    I'll be riding my bike on September 19th just like I was the day before.

    Posted 10 years ago #

  26. gembo
    Member

    Insto/IWRATS

    It is quite hard to vote NO for positive reasons. No is a negative, a rejection of a proposal.

    are you only looking for positive. Reasons for voting NO? Status quo or staying part of a United Kingdom, would not be seen as positive I take it?

    I have many reasons for voting NO which I will be doing but they do not strike me as at all positive.

    Economically - Mark Carney nailed it this week when he showed that keeping the currency means being controlled by the Bank of England, it sounds to me that the SNP are actually seeking Devo Max - same queen, same armed forces too? so sounds to me like your vote of YES won't exactly change much? If this was 1977 and the North Sea was producing oil then we could become Norway but it isn't 1977 and the oil is not gushing but trickling.

    there are quality scottish politicians, Alex salmond and Alistair darling both impressive in their different wAys. However if looking for others they are down in Westminster on the bigger stage. We are a small country and have been dependent on larger neighbours from the Darien scheme onwards. I struggle to see the difference really between a Scotland within. UK within Europe and a Scotland within Europe If that is allowed.

    culturally, hating the English has often struck me as racist. This is a bigger factor in the west of Scotland and maybe the highlands than it is in Edinburgh.

    I do not think a vote changes much if anything, but I do always vote because I look back to the time when someone like me could not vote at all.

    I am sorry to be negative as you sound optimistic for the future but such optimism is often based on the view that everything will change for the better when we are independent. Just because we will be independent no actual plan as such just the magic of independence. To me this is wishful thinking. I am not saying this is your view but I have heard such views expressed.

    Denmark and Sweden have built a kind of homogenous social democracy via high taxation. ThE SNP currently have powers to raise taxes but have not done so. if a yes campaign stated that we would all be paying 50% tax to build a social democracy and a socialist republic I would vote YES.

    as things stand I am voting NO.

    Posted 10 years ago #

  27. wee folding bike
    Member

    Who told you the oil was trickling? They have't even started the west coast yet. It would get in the way of Trident… which we could get rid of, indeed might be legally required to get rid of. The oil running out is an old trick, Denis Healy admitted to that a few months ago. Even without that we are doing fine on UK figures. UK figures might not tell you the whole story of course, for example most whisky counts as an English export because of where it leaves the UK.

    Europe has a lot less say in what we do. Europe can't send us to war.

    A Yes would mean we had a chance of getting the governments we vote for which doesn't happen at present. In the last two UK elections we returned the same balance of MPs. Of course it could be argued that there was little difference between Labour and Tories these days. In that respect you are right, in a UK election your vote makes no difference. If you need numbers UK election results that you can find them on Wings Over Scotland.

    I'm not aware of people hating the English but I don't see that being more common after Yes than after No. I could see it being less common.

    This is one vote where you could make a difference. If it's No then Westminster will, correctly in my view, decide that they can do what they like in Scotland as we are too supine to stand up to them.

    No is not a vote for the status quo, it's a vote for a government more right wing than those of the '80s to cry havoc and let slip the dogs of war. They know they aren't going to be voted for here so they have nothing to lose and we have nothing to threaten them with.

    The plan would be to decide things for ourselves.

    Hollyrood's tax raising powers were never designed to be used. If they raise tax then Westminster will just reduce the Barrnet block grant.

    Which do you think is going to be closer to a socialist republic, government from Holyrood or government from Westminster. That's the Westminster with 700 unelected members.

    I could almost understand abstaining but No means you place more trust in Westminster than in Holyrood. Thousands of dead in the middle east makes me think this is wrong.

    Posted 10 years ago #

  28. gembo
    Member

    Neither will be anywhere near a socialist republic. The oil in the west is also an old trick. Like the oil in the Falklands.

    No doesn't mean I place more trust in Westminster. I don't trust any of them. I Like Holyrood. I like devolution. I would go DEvo Max and I would pay more tax.

    No one is offering this. Tho Mrk Carney is saying tht is what a YES will be. So would be good to have the third box on the ballot but too late now.

    The SNP are keeping the army so the dead Scottish soldiers will still be there.

    Maybe scottish football teams will make it past Xmas in the champions league if we are independent too. Also in an independent Scotland you won't need to wear a helmet when cycling.

    Posted 10 years ago #

  29. wee folding bike
    Member

    Really? Which do you think is closer to a socialist republic? The house of lords where peers and Church of England bishops sit as right or Holyrood?

    And the increased investment in the north east?

    Westminster will have no reason to provide deco max after a no. Why would they? That's the same jam tomorrow promise we had in '79. We know how that turned out.

    The white paper which resulted from the Calman commission will result in more tax raising responsibility for Holyrood but not more powers. You're not getting that option within the UK.

    Mr Salmond was open to a third option on the ballot but Westminster said no. They might come to regret that.

    I'm not sure what you mean by "The SNP are keeping the army so the dead Scottish soldiers will still be there.". We could have decided not to send forces to the middle east but we didn't have the option.

    You could fit my interest in football inside a peanut shell without taking out the peanut first. That's why I've been to Firhill.

    A Yes would allow us to do things differently. We will not get it all right but we're not likely to do any worse. And if we can show how a progressive country can take care of the huddled masses then perhaps people in England might notice and it will be good for them too. Within the Union we can do nothing for them.

    Posted 10 years ago #

  30. shuggiet
    Member

    This interests me , because I believe that from a decision making / ability to move and adapt quickly, a small country is better.. All countries have to trade, and consequently ultimately I think Scotland would find the right currency /banking / trading bloc alliance to support it's smallness and strengths.

    Fundamentally though my main day-to-day concern is to not die cycling on the roads, which would render independence/governing model/economic policies/foreign policy all irrelevant to me.. And that's why the White Paper with it's absence of cycling as a core transport/ quality of life improver was a major disappointment to me. If the innovators of a Scottish state can't see that, then my confidence that they will lead us in the right direction is still low.. I'm still on the fence!

    Posted 10 years ago #

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