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Anti-social behaviour

(29 posts)
  • Started 11 years ago by rosscbrown
  • Latest reply from wingpig
  • This topic is not resolved

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  1. rosscbrown
    Member

    [+] Embed the video | Video DownloadGet the Video Player

    People deliberately obstructing your route on paths or shouting abuse as you ride by - is this a fairly common occurrence? At night it can be a fairly intimidating situation and I'm not sure what the best approach is.

    I try to slow down as, obviously, I don't want to hit anyone but I feel like one day someone will misjudge my speed* and step out in fount of me giving me little or no time to do anything meaningful about it.

    I've yet to experience this in Edinburgh, only Dumfries and Dundee. The regularity is concerning - about 1 in 3 to 5 evening rides. Never experienced anything like in in Montreal - there I was out every night!

    (*Not that I'm excessively fast, I'm actually very slow following the bus incident earlier this year, just a number of pedestrians and drivers a like struggle to conceptualise the range of speeds a cyclist is capable of.)

    Edited to add Youtube link.

    Posted 11 years ago #

  2. Min
    Member

    Those aren't "people" they are neds. Their raison d'être is to shout abuse and intimidate folk.

    The only approach is to avoid gangs of neds at night IMO though it depends how effective your local polis are. They might come out if you complain.

    Posted 11 years ago #

  3. rosscbrown
    Member

    Hmm, perhaps we should have 'tolerance zones' with 'zero tolerance zones' everywhere else. Otherwise hard to avoid roaming groups of people behaving anti-socially.

    More fundamentally, I don't understand how this problem of anti-social behaviour has come about - other countries have seemingly avoided this social problem. Having lived away from Scotland for a few years I'm actually pretty shocked by the general customs and behaviours on display here. To think I persuaded my girlfriend to move here - on reflation Scotland can be pretty grim.

    Posted 11 years ago #

  4. chdot
    Admin

    http://m.edinburghnews.scotsman.com/news/vandals-cancel-grassmarket-christmas-lights-1-3214035

    Posted 11 years ago #

  5. deckard112
    Member

    Ross I'm afraid I have to disagree entirely. Most countries suffer from anti-social problemst so to suggest it's limited to the UK is simply not true. It's also sad you've decided to make such a sweeping comment that Scotland is grim based on a few neds. I on the other hand love this country, the history, scenery, diversity, innovation and patriotism. There's not many countries where you have some of the most stunning scenery by heading not too far out of most of it's major towns and cities.

    Posted 11 years ago #

  6. Wilmington's Cow
    Member

    "There's not many countries where you have some of the most stunning scenery by heading not too far out of most of it's major towns and cities."

    In fairness this is also a bit of a sweeping statement. I love this country too, and primarily for that very ability to head for the hills so easily.

    But. France, Italy, Ireland, Spain, Lebanon, Kosovo are just places I've been with that same ability (heck, last trip to France we stayed a couple of nights with friends in Pau and in an hour were into the foothills of the Pyrenees!).

    Switzerland, Sweden, Finland could probably lay claim to similar. And this is without going to South America or into Africa.

    And Scotland can be pretty grim at times, in places (says the man who recently had bikes stolen and took to riding through Niddrie going home most nights and got sworn at by a group of kids who must have been 6 or 7, and one wee girl threw a rock at me). That's not saying that other countries can't be, and it's not a sweeping statement about absolutely nothing at all int he country being awful, just a simple statement of fact.

    Posted 11 years ago #

  7. neddie
    Member

    Just ignore the NEDS. They're only looking for a reaction.

    Give them no reaction and they will get no kick out of it.

    Posted 11 years ago #

  8. cc
    Member

    Comparisons of crime in OECD countries (Civitas, PDF) says that Scotland easily has the highest rate of serious assault of the 35 countries compared.

    (Also "Scotland has second highest murder rate in Europe" Grauniad 2005)

    More fundamentally, I don't understand how this problem of anti-social behaviour has come about

    Seems to me it's a side effect of several decades of absurdly centralised remote unrepresentative neoconservative government.

    Posted 11 years ago #

  9. rosscbrown
    Member

    "It's also sad you've decided to make such a sweeping comment that Scotland is grim based on a few neds."

    I didn't. Scotland - as a country, a population and a culture - is by no means grim in totality. There are, however, some aspects that can fairly be described as grim.

    My thoughts are not just based on the odd interaction with some 'neds' but are largely influenced by my girlfriend who is seeing this country with a fresh pair of eyes:

    - we've encountered many instances of anti-social behaviour while cycling or walking

    - a lack of courtesy to others, particularly on public transport. I can't remember the last train trip I took without having to listen to someone playing music or a programme through their mobile phone or table's loudspeaker.

    - I often see what appears to be drunken behaviour in public places, particularly on buses and trains.

    - Police presence at football games. I'm not sure what this is all about as I'm not a sports fan but I struggle to see why a football game needs so much policing. I'm used to seeing some traffic police on game days but they seem to be deployed differently in the UK.

    - The distinction between the day and night economies. We often want to go out in the evening (after 9pm) to study or enjoy a coffee but we often struggle to find suitable venues. It seems that there is no overlap between daytime cafes and the nigh-time pub/club trade. I've lived other places and I have been able to go out of good food very late or find interesting places to study / visit well into the night. I'm not saying that 24hr cafes etc are right for Scotland however if you can get a good pint at 2am, why not a speciality coffee too? (I don't drink coffee so I wouldn't know a speciality coffee if it hit me on the head - but I think you get what I mean.)

    Its not to say these things do not exist in Canada other other places I've lived yet the prevalence seems much lower. Yes, every country has specific challenges just in Scotland I don't feel like we're tackling them head on.

    The funny thing is, I'm almost sure there's more criminality in Canada than there is in Scotland. I've had someone attempt to steal my bicycle leaving it in bits and someone else actually steal my computer and iPad. Yet day to day, things appear nicer there. And I think it comes back to day-to-day behaviours.

    Posted 11 years ago #

  10. rosscbrown
    Member

    As for the countryside: Montreal was dense urban island. Manhattan and NYC are sprawling. But you don't need to go far from Vancouver to get to some amazing scenery.

    Posted 11 years ago #

  11. crowriver
    Member

    More fundamentally, I don't understand how this problem of anti-social behaviour has come about

    Oh it would take several sociology theses to deal with that question.

    In a nutshell though (and in my opinion) the following are factors:

    - High wealth inequality (especially land ownership) means those without much in the way of means are resentful of others with (perceived) higher status/wealth.

    - Destruction of traditional industries in the 1970s/80s has led to high long term unemployment in a number of areas (mostly in the west but also Lothians, parts of Fife, Dundee, etc.)

    - Selling off the more desirable social housing stock from the 1980s onwards led to the de facto creation of so-called 'sink estates' where poor people are concentrated.

    - High consumption of alcohol per capita and a binge drinking tradition.

    - Traditions of confrontational violence amongst young Scottish men (think Glasgow razor gangs 1950s, football casuals 1980s, the "square go", etc.)

    Many countries and regions have some of these issues, but Scotland's unique mix has led to particular problems.

    Posted 11 years ago #

  12. algo
    Member

    ok - I was about to post, but crowriver's post is much better than what I could say - I will make a slightly different point. I would say that what classes as "antisocial" behaviour is pretty subjective, and cultural differences are likely to jump out at you. As an example, I find the way that you ask for things at bars in the states to be pretty devoid of politeness, but I am aware that this is a cultural difference and try not to judge it when I go there. Equally when I lived in Brazil, all cars locked themselves when you put the key in the ignition - that seemed very odd to me at the time.

    I think most of your points about bar and pub culture are probably right, but I don't consider it a sign of an anti-social culture. As for this:

    Police presence at football games. I'm not sure what this is all about as I'm not a sports fan but I struggle to see why a football game needs so much policing. I'm used to seeing some traffic police on game days but they seem to be deployed differently in the UK.

    Unfortunately there is a history in the UK of football related violence - it is pretty well documented and by no means isolated to this country. It exists in Holland, Germany and is distinctly nastier and more politically based in some places like Poland and the ex-soviet countries.

    Posted 11 years ago #

  13. Charterhall
    Member

    You get used to neds in Edinburgh, whenever I see a hooded youth I expect trouble, I quicken my pace, avoid eye contact and ready myself for evasive action. Its always a huge shock to come across youths in for example the Western Isles, they look the same but as you approach them they greet you with a friendly hello. The first time it happened I was too surprised to say hello back. Still feel bad about that.

    Posted 11 years ago #

  14. Wilmington's Cow
    Member

    I did my dissertation on football hooliganism, "International Football Hooliganism and the Legal Routes to Stopping It", and the UK pales into insignificance compared to many countries (including those mentioned by algo - at the time (mid-90s) 3 or 4 people a year would die in football hooligan fights). The UK (and England particularly) got a bad name as it exported the hooligans with European competition and the international side. Other countries it tended to be internalised.

    Unless you count El Salvador and Honduras going to war over a football match...

    The cafe thing is interesting, mainly because I hadn't realised it before, but yes, it's something that's great about going abroad. Even in Beirut there was a really nice late night cafe scene. All probably ties in to the drinking culture.

    cc: "Seems to me it's a side effect of several decades of absurdly centralised remote unrepresentative neoconservative government."

    No guessing which way your vote is going.... ;)

    Posted 11 years ago #

  15. adamthekiwi
    Member

    I'd add, on the football policing front: it is largely unique to football. Rugby matches are lightly policed, have no segregation, alcohol is freely available and there is rarely any trouble.

    Posted 11 years ago #

  16. Wilmington's Cow
    Member

    Which reminds me. New Zealand. Now there's a country in which you can be in stunning landscape within moments of leaving the urban areas.

    Posted 11 years ago #

  17. crowriver
    Member

    @adamthekiwi: It's a class issue: (warning, generalisation) poor people tend not to attend rugby games in Scotland, it has a privately educated amateur tradition (unlike say the north of England, where traditionally rugby league (professional players) was for the proles and rugby union (amateurs) for the toffs).

    As the saying goes, "rugby is a game for thugs played by gentlemen, and football is a game for gentlemen played by thugs".

    If you have a crowd of respectable Edinburgh bourgeois and Borders farming types cheering on a team of old Watsonians and Academicals it requires a different policing policy to, say the presence of a crowd of Celtic supporters from Castlemilk chanting "Chucky ar la".

    Oops, has no-one mentioned the 's' word yet? More of a problem for our friends in the west but certainly not unknown in the east.

    Posted 11 years ago #

  18. Uberuce
    Member

    I once cycled through the Edinburgh Derby crowds and was struck, as an outsider to such things, by how similar the crowds were. Identikit ASBO landfill made up more than half of them, and they were singing the same songs, albiet with the lyrics changed so that different people were gay.

    The Hearts crowd were policed heavily enough, but when I approached the Russell Road alpines I met the Hibs fans, who I presume are liable to go on a property rampage because there were nae-kiddin' steel riot barricades as well as the horses and men-at-arms.

    I imagine the same reversal happens when it's at Easter Road.

    Posted 11 years ago #

  19. EddieD
    Member

    I once went for a spin on my 'bent down Georgie road during chucking out time at Tynecastle...

    hearts and Motherwell fans temporarily forgot their differences and ganged up on the guy on the ***** ******* bike

    Posted 11 years ago #

  20. algo
    Member

    @EddieD - that sounds completely terrifying.

    @Uberuce - too true about the chants.... I find a good technique for self preservation is to adopt a vociferous dislike of Jimmy Hill

    Posted 11 years ago #

  21. Wilmington's Cow
    Member

    I like to think as a football fan I'm an exception that proves the rule, because sadly it is a rule. I've gone to Murrayfield for the Calcutta Cup wearing my England jersey and never had a problem; I wouldn't dream of doing a similar thing for the football. I've seen running battles after going to see a Hearts - Celtic match (a friend is a Hearts fan, and I like going to the football), as well as (perhaps less unexpectedly) before a Tyne-Wear derby (Newcastle being my home town team).

    One thing I do love about going to either sporting event is that true critical mass that comes at kicking out time.

    Posted 11 years ago #

  22. Arellcat
    Moderator

    I've seen running battles…

    This Sunday in Gorgie, I believe.

    It's the police horses I feel most sorry for, even though the majority of the time their influence on the riotous is positive. But given that now they have to wear head shields and Kevlar shin pads, manners have gone right out of the window.

    Posted 11 years ago #

  23. wingpig
    Member

    "...yet to experience this in Edinburgh..."

    I've had exactly that sort of youths-standing-in-the-way-and-barking-as-I-passed thing on the Drylaw/Pilton section of the NEPN six or seven times over the past few years, occasionally with an extra one-of-them-pushing-another-towards-me. Had a few jakeys growling on the WoL between the Victoria path and the Shore. Had the same bloke shout "Ah hope yet get a punctir" at me just north of Craigleith twice in the same week. Had a snowball thrown at me, a BMX rolled across the road towards me and various incomprehensible sneerings from the neds of Restalrig Road.

    Posted 11 years ago #

  24. wangi
    Member

    A bunch of toerags chucking a football into the traffic last night at the Easter Rd / London Rd crossroads...

    ... bounces off a car, hits me, ... Much hilarity. Of course just need to keep going when you're boxed in by cars & buses!

    Posted 10 years ago #

  25. Stickman
    Member

    bunch of toerags chucking a football into the traffic last night

    I've had similar happen when out running on the NEPN. I took the opportunity to "accidentally" kick the ball well into the bushes.

    (Although my favourite response to some neds was from a friend a few years ago. He was being hassled outside a shop by kids - "going to get me a carryoot big man" - who he knew were causing minor trouble round the local area. He agreed to the request, took £20 off them and then went in and spent the lot on sweets which he then gave to the neds! Took some nerve, but he said it as worth it!)

    Posted 10 years ago #

  26. algo
    Member

    I've had similar to the football incident on the Calder Road Roundabouts after dark - sometimes round 8ish. Had a bottle thrown at me - at that point in time I wore a helmet and was grateful for it.... I was doing 30 odd so it was a good shot right enough. Luckily I stayed upright and carried on at pace towards the relative sanctuary of Longstone.... I'm way too much of a coward to confront anyone.

    Posted 10 years ago #

  27. Kenny
    Member

    IMHO, s/coward/sensible person/

    Posted 10 years ago #

  28. algo
    Member

    @mkns - thanks a lot - nothing like reassurance in regexp

    Posted 10 years ago #

  29. wingpig
    Member

    Kids chucking stones at people on the Restalrig Road slope from the wall above it.

    Posted 7 years ago #

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