Told I'm not very visible, what would you do?

CityCyclingEdinburgh Forum » Debate!

Told I'm not very visible, what would you do?

(74 posts)

Started 11 years ago by fimm
Latest reply from fimm

Tags:

lights visibility reflectives

12 3 Next »

fimm
Member

I was folding my bike up at Livingston North station this evening when a very polite and pleasant lady came and spoke to me. She told me that she & her husband had passed me in their car as I was cycling on the way there, and they had felt that I was not very visible at all. I have two lights, and she agreed that she could see them, but she still felt that I could be more visible, and wondered if I had something reflective to wear.

The conversation was entirely polite - I thanked her for speaking to me and I do think that she was genuinely trying to be helpful, and so I'm left feeling a bit conflicted. I do have two identical Cateye rear lights (and actually I wonder if all I need is some new batteries, taking a bit of a look at them when I got home I think that might be a plan); but I other than that I wear a long black coat and a grey hat (and today I had black trousers on, too). So I do make some demands of drivers to notice me.

I've been having a few issues on that stretch of road recently too - it is the bit just after the roadworks where cars are accelerating away after being "held up" behind me while going through the one-way section (at least I assume that's where they passed me). I've had a few alarming moments there.

(Actually, I think there might be a street light out along there, too. I'll have to have a proper look tomorrow.)

I've got a perfectly good tabard with reflectives on it - I just chose to stop wearing it, on the basis that I shouldn't have to dress up like an idiot to cycle on the road. Do I just admit defeat and wear it? Or shall I save up for a brighter rear light in the New Year?

What would you do?

Posted 11 years ago #
Min
Member

I go for an ankle band and a sash and if I remember, reflective thingies on my wrists for signalling. You can just put them on over whatever you are wearing and I don't think they are too idiotic looking. I do think reflective things are brilliant for riding after dark. More effective than lights IMO although of course I have those too.

Posted 11 years ago #
Min
Member

Meant to add, they don't have to be yellow either as you can get reflectives in any colour you like, even black. I hate yellow (sorry Kappers!)

Posted 11 years ago #
Morningsider
Member

You more than meet the legal requirement for lighting and you are visible to motorists. I wouldn't change anything. I have toned down my winter look over the last few years, abandoning high vis as it is useless in the dark and ridiculous off the bike, and opting for jackets with hidden reflective flashes (sort of self coloured rather than scotchlight).

Posted 11 years ago #
LivM
Member

You mention a long coat - not to tar you with this brush but there are people I've seen who have perfectly good lights but then the coat hangs over them. (Also to be lumped in with people who have a light mounted behind their pannier rack etc...)

Posted 11 years ago #
chdot
Admin

'We' previously 'talked' about the visibility of reflectors on pedals and/or ankle bands (the motion 'says cyclist'.)

But as M says your lights are above standard, and they saw you.

Posted 11 years ago #
amir
Member

+1 to chdot

Some people do like to give advice on this thing (after seeing you first). A group of us once got told by a bloke in a big pickup that we should wear hi-viz. Most of us were in bright colours but not bright yellow. My dad also does the same.

It's clearly important to be seen at night (and during the day!) but ....

Posted 11 years ago #
gembo
Member

Nice that it was all very civil, unlike my dog walker last night.

Put a couple of blinkers on your helmet if you have one, helps drivers see the top of you?

I love to see people lit up like a Xmas tree it makes me happy. You can get lights you fit between your spokes, I have one but took it off to change battery and can't figure how to put it back on. It changes colours and everyfink, I will bring it to Peter's Yard, if I remember

Posted 11 years ago #
Nelly
Member

Fimm, I also got some spoke reflectors, they work well, are lightweight fit and forget.

Your lights are fine, but I +1 all comments on reflectives - I hate hi viz but still have ankle slap bands and subtle reflective details.

Must admit, most pedestrians on broomhouse path are invisible this time of year. Pretty sure more peds than cyclists get knocked down due to drivers not seeing them.

Posted 11 years ago #
Instography
Member

I'm not sure they're telling you anything about you but something about themselves. Probably that they saw you later than they would have liked, that actually they weren't looking properly and would appreciate it if you would make their life easier by being a bit more obvious.

Posted 11 years ago #
Greenroofer
Member

Water Off A Duck's Back Cassandra Jacket?

Not sure this is ideal for Q/KOM on Strava, but seems perfect for reasonably sedate Bromptoning if you don't want to look like a cyclist at the end of the journey.

Posted 11 years ago #
Dave
Member

It seems laughable that people might approach drivers of black cars in car parks and earnestly warn them that yes, they do have two headlights and two tail lights but black is just not that reflective, is it?

The problem is that there's now a social context where people feel this is an issue for cyclists even if there's no physical difficulty with visibility, so that is literally what's happening.

It's primarily come about by cyclists themselves encouraging this attitude, although in fairness people riding today are hardly responsible for the environment they've inherited, which must condition many of them in short order.

With two lights I find it impossible to believe that you're having near misses because people can't see you, however I recommend you put it to the test by wearing your existing tabard one day on, one day off for a week and ask yourself honestly if it made any difference. See also the 2013 Walker study discussed extensively right here on CCE...

When we both cycled on the A90 from Cramond to Lothian Road, I had a charcoal jacket with minor reflective piping and my better half had the same jacket in fluoro maxi-viz, and she constantly complained of terrible driving, which I suffered not at all. Make of that what you will...

Posted 11 years ago #
sallyhinch
Member

I've been wondering this a bit myself. Cycling into town on dark roads at 5pm yesterday, I felt that - although I had perfectly adequate lights - I was maybe pushing it a bit in a black jacket and dark trousers. I certainly found that cars were slower to dip their headlights than I was used to (I was using my backup light rather than the full beam dynamo headlight) I suppose when it's really dark a few bits of reflectiveness go a long way to outlining a human being rather than a point of light. Once in town and under the streetlights, though, I doubt you're any more visible reflective than you would be as a dark silhouette.

I have noticed that the guys cycling in full road workers' gear (I think they're actual road workers) with the reflective strips on the legs as well as a band across the chest are very noticeable on a dark road - takes a while to work out what you're seeing though!

Posted 11 years ago #
sallyhinch
Member

@Dave - I should add that I wish drivers of grey and silver cars would keep their headlights on because I do actually find them quite hard to see!

Posted 11 years ago #
neddie
Member

I suspect her husband has had massive rant about cyclists to her in the car & threatened to go and speak to you.

At which point she's said "Leave it to me, honey"

Posted 11 years ago #
Kenny
Member

What would you do?

I'd be more conspicuous by wearing hi-vis with reflective bits everywhere and numerous bright red lights on the back. I prefer to look like a dick if it means people are more likely to see me.

Posted 11 years ago #
KarenJS
Member

I'm with mkns on this one. I'd rather look silly and be seen, although whether or not wearing hi viz/reflectives actually improves visibility seems to be a matter of debate. I tend to find it easier to spot other cyclists from a distance when they are wearing hi viz (during the day), reflective material (at dawn/dusk) and lights (at night). I therefore wear the bright yellow jacket with reflective bits that prompts people to shade their eyes when I get into work in the morning!

I like Dave's idea of wearing your tabard one day on/off and conduct your own mini scientific study :)

Posted 11 years ago #
riffian
Member

I'd refresh the batteries in your lights. That'll make the biggest single difference. Although you kind of worked that out already.

Posted 11 years ago #
riffian
Member

Duplicate post

Posted 11 years ago #
crowriver
Member

@Instography, +1.

Having said that I generally put something reflective/hi-viz on after the sun sets. In fact in winter I tend to just put my old bright yellow (sorry) Altura waterproof cycling jacket on whether day or night. Stereotypical yes, but keeps the wind and cold out and makes me feel more visible. In spring, summer, autumn I prefer not to wear yellow, preferring red, green or dark grey, or whatever clothes I happen to be wearing.

Posted 11 years ago #
steveo
Member

I will admit there was a chap last night which I seen later than I'd have liked.

I was driving over Chesser Avenue behind a FauxX4 when I spotted a fairly dim red light to my left. The rider in dark clothes had what on quick glance pretty full panniers and one seat post mounted light quite low down so the visible angle of light wasn't fantastic. I'm not sure if his trailer was a factor, but the overly bright brake lights of the Range Rover didn't help.

At no point were we going to interact but I still like to know where people are on the road.

Posted 11 years ago #
Charlethepar
Member

I agree with Dave.

In fact, I'd have asked the lady if she had difficulty seeing black cars.

I'd also have suggested that she had an eye test, and pointed out that many elderly drivers are restricted to driving in the light only. In fact, I could have offered to refer her to the polis so that her file could be marked for when her licence came up for renewal to make sure that her failing eyesight was fully considered.

Posted 11 years ago #
Focus
Member

I have to say there are some people jumping to conclusions about a person who quite politely offered some safety advice (whether it was warranted or not is up to the individual).

And none of us should have to apologise (even in jest) for wearing hi-viz or yellow! Is it really so demeaning to go that extra bit to be seen? Yes, I stopped wearing a Sam Brown belt because I felt a bit dorky with it on. But I am now quite happy to wear my Altura Night Vision Flite - it's got a sporty cut, good reflectives and it's bright yellow. Flashing ankle reflectors too when it gets dark. Even on the road bike when I want to have a pretence of looking "cool".

It seems this lady was generally concerned rather than towing a Daily Mail/EEN rant line. Personally, I'd rather know if someone couldn't see me as clearly as is reasonably possible before I was run over, rather than after.

Posted 11 years ago #
Instography
Member

In the absence of more or better information I don't see that there's much alternative to making assumptions or drawing inferences. Since it's such a commonplace to put the responsibility for safety on the person who might be hurt rather than the person who might be doing the hurting I think it's reasonable to question the motivation of someone who feels sufficiently bold to say to someone adequately lit but not fluorescing that they should make themselves more visible. They feel entitled because it's what's expected and, by and large, cyclists buy into that.

Of course, there's no need for anyone to feel that they should apologise for what they wear. Wear what you like (or feel you need to wear, if you don't actually like it) but let's not kid ourselves about why we might feel the need to wear those things - we're making up for drivers' deficiencies. Making their jobs easier because they can't be trusted to do it properly.

Posted 11 years ago #
LaidBack
Member

Recently I did a 100 yard test ride on my low racer round the block beside Earl of Marchmont and forgot to put the rear light on. Front was the Edelux i was showing to someone so I wasn't fully invisible (!)
A guy came over to the shop to say that the had seen me go by and then noticed my back light was out.

I took the comment as genuine concern for my safety. 'Did I not feel vulnerable?'. I just said I feel vulnerable on any bike... I check mirrors and look over shoulder.

Posted 11 years ago #
slowcoach
Member

As drivers especially but also as cyclists we should be able to stop well within the distance we can see to be clear, and that includes what we can see at night. If someone/something is lit up or reflective it is a lot easier to see that it is there, but sometimes some of us assume that if we can't see anything then it is clear, and forget or ignore the low chance that there might be something there in the dark. Reflectors on the bike should help (if the other vehicles have working lights) and don't need batteries changing or special clothes to be worn.

Re trying your own study, one footnote from the 2013 Walker study was "the rider-experimenter did not look at any data until the study was complete, and upon doing so was surprised by what the data showed, commenting that in many cases his subjective experience of driver behaviour in response to given outfits was not matched by the objective data." So you might feel more or less safe even if the clearance from passing cars isn't better or worse?

Posted 11 years ago #
PS
Member

The main (only?) thing I'd take from that conversation is to check the brightness of my lights.

There is something of a lumen war going on out there with car lights getting brighter and brighter and, for my money, that means bike lights need to keep up in order to be noticed. But if you've got a decently bright and unobscured light on both the front and the back (RRP likely to be c£50, but no doubt half that online), then you are probably as visible as you're going to be. I like to have a few reflective strips or reflectors on my bike, shoes, trousers, jacket or gloves, but not having any won't stop me going out.

Posted 11 years ago #
Focus
Member

@ Instography

For me, the fact fimm says the lady was polite and pleasant suggests less potential victim blaming than just pointing out something they were concerned about for a rider's safety. Had they been ranting, I would have had an altogether different opinion.

For example, edd1e_h said,

"I suspect her husband has had massive rant about cyclists to her in the car & threatened to go and speak to you."

Now that's quite a leap to make without evidence.

I also don't buy the inference that as long as your lights are legal, that's enough. Sometimes it may be, other times not, in my opinion. I've seen plenty of cyclists who have what I consider good enough lights but who still don't stand out well because they are entirely clothed in dark materials.

I choose to cover both situations when possible. You may decide you shouldn't have to. Fine, we're both complying with the law. I just feel happier to take that extra step.

The important thing is hopefully neither of us will regret a driver's deficiency as you put it, any more than we already have (and I have, yes, when very well lit and with reflectives, ironically kind of supporting your point, I know!)

Posted 11 years ago #
fimm
Member

Thank you for all the comments.
Please note that I refer to reflectives on my tabard - the rest of it is hi-vis, but that is not the bit that is going to get me seen in the dark.
I'm going to replace the batteries in my lights: they seem to have died quite quickly but certainly when I had a look later on yesterday I thought they looked a bit dim.

@Min, where can you get black reflectives?

@LivD The coat is long enough that I sit on it. The lady said she saw my lights, even though as well as the long coat I had a laptop in a bag slung across my back (I rarely carry this, but I was taking it home is case I couldn't get to the office today because of the wind).

@chdot I have reflectors on my pedals. I made some reflective ankle straps for use on my road bike (that doesn not have pedal reflectors as I run clipless), Maybe reflective ankle bands would be a possible addition without going for the full bin man look...

@gembo I don't wear a helmet when I'm riding the Brompton. I could possibly clip a light onto my hat, actually!

Rememper the Brompton has small wheels, so spoke reflectors might be less useful? Also this car was approaching from the rear, so I don't think spoke reflectors would make a difference...
There's a limit to where you can put stuff on the Brompton just by the nature of the thing.

@Greenroofer I like that coat, it is a very nice idea, but I'm not in the market for a new coat.

@Dave, I think that is a good idea - I had been wondering about trying with the tabard even before this conversation. I wore it this morning, as it happens, given the conditions.

@Charlethepar - I think she was younger then me... (and I think it was her husband who was driving and dropping her off at the station).

Posted 11 years ago #
fimm
Member

To the people who say "just wear the hi vis & reflectives" - yes, I do agree that the lady was genuinely concerned and genuinely trying to be helpful (just as I spoke to a cyclist a couple of days back whose rear light was pointing down rather than back).

Insto makes a lot of excellent points. Two other reasons I have for not wearing visibility gear & a helmet on the Brompton are 1) I want to look normal - cyclists are too often seen as "other" - and 2) I want to say by my actions "actually cycling is not that dangerous and you don't need to wear lots of safety gear to do it".

Posted 11 years ago #

RSS feed for this topic

12 3 Next »

Reply »

You must log in to post.

// CityCyclingEdinburgh Forum

About This Forum

CityCyclingEdinburgh Forum » Debate!

Told I'm not very visible, what would you do?

Reply »

RSS Feeds

Links